Video: Josh Koscheck After Controversial UFC 95 Loss To Paulo Thiago
Posted by Kris Karkoski on Feb 23, 2009 at 12:32 pm ET87 Comments
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i thought it was stopped early too, but after watching the replay Kos was out and would have just taken 2-3 more hard shots for no reason. i understand as a fighter you always think i have shot to recover, but i didnt see that happening.
You don’t know if he could have recovered or not, because he was never given the chance. He was not out cold, like Liddell when he was KO’ed by Evens. He should have been given the chance to recover. If he had eaten another shot or two, fine, but I understand him being upset, dude trains hard and feels like he was robbed by the ref. People like willyd can’t keep their personal opinion of the dude separate from making an honest assessment of the stoppage. The dude jumped right up after it was stopped. Unlike Liddell vs. Evans, Cro Cop vs. Gonzaga, Evans vs. Salmon, Lambert vs. Gouveia, Wandi vs. Page, the losers in those fights were out cold, Kos was rocked. Early stoppage. I’m not even a fan of Kos’s, but I know the ref should have given it a couple more seconds to see what would have unfolded. Fighters get rocked and recover all the time, and should be given the chance to. That is one thing about this sport that makes it great.
Personal opinion vs honest assessment? I never stated a personal opinion of Kos, a fantasy league opinion. The stoppage was for fighter safety from the eyes of the ref, who I have never seen in the UFC before. Could say the same thing for Stefan Struve, he jumped back up and was ready to fight after the stoppage. So my honest assessment, it’s up to the ref and not you or me.
Struve never made one offensive move the entire fight. All he did was eat punches, he was out classed, and in danger if he stayed in there any longer. He wanted out, and made no complaints about it being stopped.
“He was not out cold, like Liddell when he was KO’ed by Evens.”
Sorry bro, but you’re retarded. Who agrees with me that when Evans caught Chuck with that right hand of his… Chuck was going to die, get hauled off on a stretcher, or at least retire? Chuck was seriously f–ked up after that! Like damn, that was one of the most brutal knockouts in UFC HISTORY.
My main point was, that is a new ref and stopped two fights when he saw the fighters safety may be in jeopardy, Kos and Struve. I believe he was also the ref in the Eklund/Dunham fight which he let go a bit longer then the other two.
BW,
Just because he wasn’t “out cold like Liddell” does not mean the fight should not have been stopped.
C-RO,
1. What?
2. That was an extreme use of hyperbole, for sure.
It was an example of someone being out cold. Yeah it was brutal. Thats the way we like like it. You can argue your point without name calling. Makes you sound like a little kid.
@ Justin, The dude got rocked, should everyone that gets rocked have the fight stopped that quickly. Then why don’t we just stop the fight and ask them if they are ok to continue, like Montreal wanted.
Don’t forget that the UFC doesn’t make rules regarding what is “intelligently defending.” That is up to each athletic commission. Until someone can cite rules from the commission on how to make that call, it’s just speculation from a bunch of guys who like to watch.
Bw,
Read my other comments, you should find there what I feel about this.
@ Justin, I have, and we have made some of the some points, i.e. Big Nog, but we still seem to be on opposite sides of the fence.
BW,
I’m not going to argue for the sake of arguing. I think Kos was out on the way down and when he hit the ground, because he put himself in a position to get blasted, and got blasted. The ref’s first priority is to protect the fighters, based on his judgment standing in the cage watching exactly what happened he determined it was the right decision, for Kos’ safety to stop the fight. I stand by the ref’s decision because if Kos had used proper technique we probably wouldn’t be having this conversation, and he probably would have won the fight. I can see where some people might think this was an early stoppage, but Kos still lost the fight because of his bad technique, so therefore I think it’s fair.
Now, that I’ve said things that I’ve already said, just in a different manner this time, maybe I won’t have to do this again.
Justin stated in another comment and agree, veteran refs let the fight go on when they know the fighters. Big Nog can do it cause the refs know his fighting style. This ref is new. I made the comment to my buddies at the beginning of this fight that we have a new ref. During the Santos/Struve fight, heard him tell Struve to let go of the cage in a British accent, so called that out to my buddies why he may be reffing this card. You will always see newer refs stopping fights sooner then veteran refs. But I still think any ref would have called this one.
I agree. Koscheck has been going a hundred miles an hour trying to fight anyone and everyone. I think me needs to take a some advice from diego sanchez and re think where he fits in the UFC. He has a long way to go from here and with a stacked division he is not going to get a title shot anytime soon. TAKE A VACATION KOSCHECK.
What a friggen baby. So disrespectful and classless, especially in the octagon when he refused to have the ref touch his wrist when announcing the winner.
This was not controversial. He got knocked the F out! Everyone knows it.
Suck it up baby. Down the ladder you go.
Aren’t you basically calling the kettle black? Almost all of your comments I ready are disrespectful and classless. I normally wouldn’t say anything, but I have to call you out on this one.
*read* sorry
Yes and no. When I watched it live, I also called him disrespectful to not allow the ref to touch him after the fight. I understand he thought the fight was stopped early, but everyone thinks it is when they first wake up. To do what he did and distract attention from his opponent is base and shows a lack of respect, not just for Paulo Thiago but also for the ref and the sport.
Could Markus have said things differently? Perhaps. I could have phrased one of my comments down there differently, and likely would have if his actions in this little video had let me. His tempter tantrum (and there is no other way to describe it) on camera doesn’t invalidate – indeed, it strengthens – the point. He still has a lot of growing up to do. Which is sad given where he is in his life and his career.
A trip way down the ladder could do him a lot of good, if he doesn’t Junie out on us on the way back up.
I am a fan, I can say whatever the hell I want however I want. It’s an internet message board, noone really cares.
Koscheck on the other hand is a professional athlete, a T.V. star and a ROLE MODEL to tons of young kids and up and coming fighters out there.
His shameful, dis-respectful display in the Octagon is not what this sport needs.
Fact remains he was the dominant fighter, he is the better fighter, but he got careless and thought that Thiago could not box with him. Well, one uppercut and a hook to the head later would prove otherwise.
Take it like a man and be gracious in defeat, don’t disrespect the other fighter and all the hard work he has done by acting like a spoiled rotten little baby throwing a temper tantrum. Learn from your mistakes and come back with a better game-plan next time. Never under-estimate an opponent.
Grow up Koscheck.
1. If hadn’t thrown such a piss poor jab he wouldn’t have gotten clocked anyways. He put himself in that position with his terrible technique.
2. He was out on the way down, and when he hit the ground, then he came back right before the ref stepped in.
I have to agree with you on both points! I think he made the mistake(after Thiago showed nothing resembling a striking game) of thinking this guy cannot strike with me and he dropped his guard and got dropped by a basic counter stirke. Which of course breaks the first rule of fighting “never underestimate your opponent”.
it was a justified stoppage BUT it could have also been justified to give him a shot at recovery. It’s one of those it could have gone either way type things, first rule for an official is to protect the fighter at all times, which he did.
I agree that the stoppage could have gone either way. But I personally would rather see a ref err on the side of caution. The only time I don’t like to see that is if its a veteran ref in a fight where he should know the guy has shown that he can take punishment in the past, like someone reffing a fight with Big Nog in it should know not to stop it that quickly.
I was happy he lost, I was the only one in my fantasy league that went with Thiago. They said he had his hands up when he hit the canvas, yeah that is what your body does when it takes a shot to the dome, the muscles tighten up. There were a couple other fights that may have been stopped a little soon, Dos Santos/Struve was another one, but fighter safety is more important then a loss. Kos could have easily taken some vicious down punches if the fight would have continued and there would be no way he would be on this video walking around.
Yeah I totally agree, not an early stoppage. It may have appeared early because he recovered quickly and being Thiago didn’t jump on him and land a few more for good measure but neither of those points discount the fact that he was out.
I think it was stopped too soon. Sure kos could have gotten the holy hell beat out of Him in that daze but who doesn’t want to see that? Too bad mazzagati wasn’t reffing this fight… He let’s everything go past what it Should….
Dude he got ko’d like hell. After watching that replay over, and over and over and over again(just happy to c kos get dropped), it’s clear that he was out. Just like when karo considered himself a “top ww”, i think kos is upset cuz he just fell down the ww rankings. Everyone gets ko’d dude.
i hope a rematch gets called asap, that guy sucked, kos will kill him if they meet again,
I don’t think the guy sucked at all and I look forward to seeing him fight again. I wouldn’t mind seeing a rematch either. I think he showed he has the skills to be in the ufc, having a win over Koscheck is not easy. Even tho I don’t agree with the stoppage, I’m not going to discredit the guy one bit, and look forward to his next fight.
And you have the nerve to call out my comments as mean-spirited or unnecessary? He popped Kos cleanly twice on the dome and had his lights out before he landed. But, yes…clearly Paulo Thiago sucks.
The only way someone can say a guy who is 11-0 and has a KO over Kos “sucks” is is he lost money on that fight. Come clean. How much was it?
11-0 yeah sounds great but who the hell has he been fighting, to me he looked rubbish in the kos fight, all he was doing was backing up all fight, he didn’t try anything up until kos ran into his hand, then he was walking round like he was some bad ass, i dont normally say a fighter sucks but imo that guy did, i was just waiting for kos to knock him out then some how that right landed, and anyone who thinks the guy did look good doesn’t no mma, hell i could go in there and more or less run away from some1 then throw a punch and have the other guy duck into it, people are only happy cos there are alot of kos haters out there and they are happy which ever way he losses but that guy SUCKS
If this guy sucks, what does that say about Kos. His opponent was running from him the whole time, then Kos headbutts Thiago’s right hand, and finishes with a pimp slap with the left. Kos needs to go back to his wrestling and lay off the over hand right. Or work on his sloppy jabs. You also have to remember, Thiago is a submission fighter and not a striker, much different fighter on the ground then on his feet. Still awesome that a non-striker TKO’s Kos.
Opinion is an opinion, but he sucked? You only really seen the guy box and he took alot of big shots from Koschek. The guy is also 10-0. I wasn’t impressed, but saying he sucks is just a bit harsh. Only opnion though.
Big Nog makes a living off of taking shots like that, recovering and then sub’n someone. If they stopped his fights that early, people would be going nuts.
WHAT HAPPEN TO THE KOS SAYING WIN OR LOSE HES NOT COMING UP WITH ANY SORT OF EXCUSES… HAHAH I LOVED IT AND I WISH THEY WOULD HAVE LET IT GO.. SO HE CAN GET FUCCED UP EVEN MORE…
She does come across as a pissy little crybaby bitc h here, doesn’t she?
Wait…..hold on. So Josh got rocked. True. He hit the ground. True. His eyes rolled. True. THEN HE WENT INTO OPEN HALF-GUARD AND PUT HIS HAND UP. True. The evidence is there. Yeah, he was hurt; that’s not open for debate. But this one was too early. Read Sherdog’s article about “intelligent defense.”. It’s a good article.
Um….going limp, hitting your head, eyes rolling back into your head are textbook symptoms of being unconscious, if even for a moment. If you are unconscious, you can not intelligently defend yourself. It is medically impossible.
His “open half guard” consisted of rigid arms and leg. Also textbook symptoms of being knocked unconscious. Sherdog has a definition of intelligently defending, doctors and refs have a definition of unconscious. One that precludes anything intelligent happening. He was out, the ref could see that, the fight stops.
thank you…perfectly said!
So, if he was out, then how was he able to put his arms up?
Josh V, these guys do this every single day so their brain learns this as a motor skill for self defense. They get knocked unconscious, the subconscious kicks in. Look at Nate Quarry after the Franklin fight, his whole body tightened up and arms raised a bit trying to defend himself, but couldn’t get his arms up that high. Saw a video on youtube where a boxer was knocked out, flat on his back, and still throwing jabs. Just a crazy thing the brain learns and does when knocked silly.
how could anyone not say he was out?!?!??!?!
he got knocked out and if the ref wouldn’t have dove on top of him…kos would havehad 2 or 3 more big blows to his face!!! and then it would have been called….he needs to stop being a baby…he lost..get over it!!
how can anyone say he intelligently defended himself…he got knocked out just threw his arms up…he had no idea he was still in a fight….there is no way you can have ur arms up ready to defend urself with ur eyes rolled to the back of ur head!! it was a good stoppage and either way he would have lost…
Here is a good picture of Koscheck ready to defend himself on the ground before the ref jumped in.
http://photos.mmaweekly.com/gallery/Ultimate%20Fighting%20Championship%20-%20UFC/UFC_95/fights/06-Paulo%20Thiago%20def%20Josh%20Koscheck/UFC95_ThiagoKoscheck_068.jpg
lol are u serious!?!???
i could find good pictures of plently of people who have been knocked out that appear to ready to defend themselves….haha
that is a good pic tho!
Here is better picture of Kos knocked out:
http://www.ufc.com/index.cfm?fa=MultiMedia.GalleryImgDetail&gid=540&aid=19456&return=fa%3DMultiMedia.GalleryImgList%26gid%3D540
The follow-up picture still shows Kos’s right hand on the mat, left arm barely up, left leg slightly in the air, no way was he ready to defend himself. If Thiago would have rushed in, he would have laid down some bombs.
that was as soon as he hit the ground, the pic I posted was after that and before the ref jumped in and shows he was getting ready to defend
If I can post this, here is the gif
http://i41.tinypic.com/98y7w8.jpg
It shows his legs, not stiff but moving to get Paulo into guard.
But yes it is still a brutal combo the hurt him very bad.
that was as soon as he hit the ground, the pic I posted was after that and before the ref jumped in and shows he was getting ready to defend
nice!
Yep your pic is better! For someone whose not a Kos fan, you sure are debating pretty hard for him. I am not a Kos fan, done with this debate, glad he lost, have him fight Junie next.
Another pic.
http://media.ufc.tv/i.cfc?method=get&w=550&cs=1&s=9C183310-1422-0E8C-9AB2F2F6BE7AC743.jpg
What can I say. I am a passionate fan of the sport, and call it like I see it. I believe what I am saying and that’s why I defend it.
and i’m bored
At least you admit you are bored! We can look at every single picture taken on this fight, won’t change the outcome. I would have loved for the fight to have continued and seen Thiago rain down elbows on Kos, but I wasn’t given that present. I understand your point that you believe the fight was stopped early no matter who was fighting, but again, it was a new ref in the UFC and in his eyes, he stopped the fight. Like I said on another post, he was the ref in the Santos/Struve fight and Eklund/Dunham fight. Struve and Kos got the stop after being rocked, Dunham got in a few extra shots towards his TKO.
Thanks for the pic of Kos ko’d its my new screen saver, ha, hate the Kos
Kris, are we not allowed to post links to Gifs, site wont let me, keeps saying it is a duplicate post.
It said duplicate post because you tried to post the same link twice consecutively and that was the only content of the comment, therefore, it was in fact, a duplicate post.
well thanks. didn’t awnser my question about gifs though
I sent you an email, about this. If you were registered with MMAFrenzy I would have just sent you a message on here.
Hopefully this will post
http://media.ufc.tv/i.cfc?method=get&w=550&cs=1&s=9C183310-1422-0E8C-9AB2F2F6BE7AC743.jpg
sorry, this was supposed to post along time ago and did not. I reposted in another spot, then it pops up later. i don’t know
BW, Watch the fight again buddy because….kos was out before he hit the ground he just woke up when he hit the floor this happens all the time…..But the stoppage was perfect the ref. made a great call….This isnt boxing you get ko’d once your down no standing up….he wasnt rocked….rocked is when you get hit and you start gettting wabbling…..Ive been rocked before by a training partner that punchs really hard who is a hw and ive never dropped like that…My leg might get wobbly but never do i drop like that…not just that but kos muscles locked up for a sec and he was out then after about a second on the floor he woke up……kos lost get over it fan of him or not….Its not like he wont come back from this lose anyweays
thanks, i have seen it again. go watch a nog fight. Buddy
BW,
For some reason all of your comments are hitting the spam filter now, I will have to get Kris to look into it. Either that or take a break from commenting for a while and try it again later, my apologies
ok I choose to watch big nog vs mir…..nog said thought that was stpped early was it…Not at all!…..just admit it man kos was doing grea then he got cocky and sloppy and threw a sloppy jab and got beheaded by a uppercut and a sloppy left hook
also your gif doesnt help his whole body is stiff when he hits he just wakes up a second after that..he was done…the ref stopped what would have been more shots that werent needed that would have a came a couple seconds later had he not stopped it
One of the Writers at BE did a decent write up about this.
thanks for the info and post justin thats exactly was i was talking about
good article, doesn’t change my opinion
That’s because you aren’t familiar with the fact that, when unconscious, even for a minute, “intelligent defense” is NOT possible, ergo the stoppage was correct. Even if the ref was late diving on it. The instant you are unconscious, there is no defending. Medically impossible. Thank you, good night.
This sport is running the danger of turning a KO into “who lands a good shot first.”. If you REALY want it that way, then you need to overturn or replay every single “comeback” fight. I do not fault the ref at all. But I could see the argument being made.
I think Yves Lavigne is the best referee I’ve seen since Big John. What about you? Who’s your favorite ref?
Dan Miragliotta: Helped Kimbo beat James Thompson, poked Herring in the eye before the Lesnar fight, called a timeout in the Gona/Hardy fight as well as pushed Gono through the air when he was going for a flying knee. Plus the Werdum/Vera stoppage, BEST ref in MMA right now!!
Ok… We can have fights stopped like that, or as in the Silva and Irvin fight, we can have a guy eat 8 punches to the face and get split open. I think the stoppage was warranted. There will always be controversy in this regard. The only thing you can do is NOT get smoked like that. If you do, you get what you deserve, a BIG FAT loss on your record.
I agree Yves Lavigne is responsible(partly) for marcus davis’s win over paul taylor. Taylor was raining down bombs on davis and lavigne let it go while some other ref would have stopped it, and davis of course turned it around mounted him and got the arm bar.
But seriously dudes, KOS was in dream world before he hit the ground and his body went stiff and made it look as though he pulled gaurd. Anyone remember houston vs irving? Same thing dude. Also, “when he pulled gaurd”, he was on the ref while thiago had been celebrating his victory for like 5 seconds. Check the replay dudes. Kos was done. The ref saved him from a serious injury. I wasnt impressed by thiago but the dude was 10-0 and in his debut, he kod/tkod a top 10 ww. I don’t think he sucks.
kos looked like he might have come up to defend but i think he was in a daze regardless so he was wouldve been beat on the ground with a couple more punches!!!!!i think the ref did the right thing in mma if your hands go out they call the fight
i think it was a good call if he did let it go a little longer and if kos came back i think he would of got caught later he kept throwing those right over hand punchs i thought he was going to get caught by a left uppercut.
Kosh is just a c0cky bust4rd! Get it right…….
Kos took this kid lightly and thre a weak asss jab while looking at the ground (perhaps attempting to set up his own uppercut), now even tho Kos has been working primarly on his striking (which is still unimpressive) he has moved away from his bread and butter. That being stated perhaps he was unwilling to go to the ground with a BJJ “ace” I don’t know. Did it look as tho he was toying with this fellow yes, but when you thow a piss poor attempt of a jab at someone (no power or speed) watchout cuz you might just get caught.
He was ko’d, not awake, unconcious, eyes in the back of his head, limp, if even for 1 full second he was out… When his head hit the mat perhaps he awoke but the was still blurry,fuzzy,unclear in his intentions whatever. He went to pull guard out of habit, not real skill, perhaps he awoke soon after I don’t know exactly..
Heath Herring v Big Nog do I believe that Nog was ko’d (no matter how slight it might have been ya) perhaps they should have called it then, but the didn’t and Herring didn’t “go in for the kill”, it is what it is..
Watch Mark Coleman v Alan Goes and realize at the end when attacks Coleman thats out of all the training sessions, not that he is actually attempting to counter being knock out, I believe this is a similar case.. Roger Huerta v Clay Guida same thing but Huerta kept Guida close and made it look as tho he knew what he was doing the entire, he got “lucky”.
Quick stoppage or not (I can see both cases), it isn’t going to change the fact that it is a really big L on kos’ record, unless the commision overrules the KO (extremely unlikely for so many reasons), so Kos ask for a rematch against the kid that ko’d your assss…
I personaly don’t care its an L bottom line and he was out, so in my mind it wasnt quick nor as violent as I wanted to see Kos get ko’d
There is no commission for UK fights, and Dana watching the replay said “He’s out.” so… there will be no overturning that fight.
I know there is no commision over there, primarly why it would be rather difficult… kinda a little joke that I completely F~up, my apologies
No problem man. I haven’t gotten around to re-watching the fights yet, but I read on UFC.com that one of their staff writers noticed the fight was stopped for “several seconds” before Kos protested. He also said he felt like basically Kos got caught, and therefore his next fight will do more to determine his standing at WW, so I can see that.
Im personally not too worried about “where he stands”, because he will fight his way up… He did get caught and got knocked the f out… just give him his rematch soo he stops complaining i guess
J-dawg- FR{stat’s} What up homie’s
Yeah Kos got rocked hard but I can really see his arguement man.
I like the kid honestly,well his talent I should say but I watched it several times and thiago after rock’n kos just slowly walked over to him instead of rushing in to finish it giving Kos time to recover and then kos put his hand up to block what was next and he layed back down on his back to get into position….. So I can see how the little cocky buger was upset… We seen guys get rocked harder than that and they let the fight continue, soooo hey let him tooo.
But as FR said give him a rematch and let him settle it.
I was hoping Koscheck would get Fitch again after this. But now maybe Marcus Davis
it looks like its gonna be dan hardy vs marcus next which should be awesome ….I dont know who to pick if they do fight…I can see dan hardy winning because he really is underrated and really good a possible champ one day and marcus also is great and a possible champ someday…A little inconsistant sometimes is davis…I thought he really should have tooled mike swick d like to see a rematch between those two also
I wonder if Koscheck and fitch will fight considering they are both from AKA. I think they’ve dodged eachother thus far because of it. Swick is also in that camp, so it it kind of makes things interesting.
kos was out before he it the ground.Dont be a cry baby and take it like a man.You didnt hear chuck crying.
if all fights where stopped like that there would be 5 more losses on Nogueira’S record now if you ask me I think kos was out but I think
because we see a lot of fighters unhappy with early stoppages mostly ones
that lose to them I think you lit them take 2-3 more shots changes are
if they got knocked down there ****ed up anyway so lit them get hit 2-3
more times so we don’t have **** like this who’s to say kos would have recovered and put him in something from the ground see it could have been
a great come back and turned a free lackluster card in to a good night of fights but we will never know because the fight was stopped early but
at the end of the day the ref got payed kos got payed and thiago got payed
and we are stuck with a early stoppage and most likely haft to pay 50$
to see the rematch so how is a early stoppage fair to us the fans
re: “it could have been a great come back and turned a free lackluster card in to a good night of fights”
I thought it was a good night of fights anyways.