Greg Jackson Responds to Greasing Allegations; Kizer Says Appeal Not Yet Filed
Georges St-Pierre
Georges St-Pierre’s trainer Greg Jackson on Monday commented to MMA Weekly on the application of Vaseline to St-Pierre’s back during his main event victory over BJ Penn on Saturday at UFC 94:
“So in between rounds, (’witch doctor’ Steven Friend) had this little drill that you do – and (cornerman) Phil Nurse is the one who knows how to do it – he showed Phil, and this is what Georges wanted, so we did that. But this is why we were doing it. He rubbed your back and tapped your chest; I don’t know exactly how it works. But anyways, what that’s supposed to do is get your energy in line, or motivated or whatever. So in between rounds, we had Phil Nurse do that.
“The controversy came because Phil Nurse also was putting Vasoline on Georges’ eyebrows. In between rounds, you always want to put on Vasoline on (a fighter’s face). So Phil Nurse put all the Vasoline on his face, so his hands might have had a miniscule amount left over from that, when he went around the side and rubbed a little point on his back, and tapped on his chest.
“At that point, somebody in the audience thought we were greasing George down, and ran over and told the commission that we were greasing his body down. The commission came in and said ‘you can’t grease him down,’ which didn’t work. They said ‘you’re putting Vasoline on his back,’ and Phil’s like, ‘oh, there might be a little on my fingers, but it wasn’t intentional at all, and of course they wiped it right off and it was gone, so it wasn’t a factor in the fight at all.”
Nevada State Athletic Commission Executive Director Keith Kizer informed MMA Junkie on Monday that Penn has not yet officially filed an appeal and, while St-Pierre’s corner could face disciplinary action, GSP’s victory is unlikely to be overturned:
“If they do file something, we’ll obviously deal with it in due course. Whether or not the commission wants to do anything on their own initiative, other than what we’ve already done, obviously, in giving them a very, very stern warning, (I don’t know). Anytime you have disciplinary action, it could involve a suspension. It could involve a fine. It could involve a revocation. But it’s a little premature to be talking about that. They can definitely file a complaint against the cornerman. But that’s probably it. I don’t know. We’ll see. I don’t see any basis to protest the decision, but you can definitely complain against the actions of the cornerman.
Tags: BJ Penn, Georges St. Pierre
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So a member of the commission was told about the “greasing” and wiped off his back, right? So what’s the problem? GSP has no history of bending the rules, and I’m sure there’s ample video evidence that back’s up the trainer’s story. Besides, BJ never once had GSP’s back. Maybe BJ just needs some of that Vasaline to help swallow those nasty words he had for GSP.
If you break the rule, you break the rule. It doesn’t matter if it gets corrected before the fight happens. In NASCAR if they find that someone has an illegal part on a car before the race, they are made to take the part off, but they are still penalized for having the part on there. Even though they gain no competitive advantage due to the infraction being corrected prior to competition, they still broke the rule and are therefore punished. MMA should treat this the same way.
Also, I read somewhere else that the “somebody in the audience” that ran over and told the commission was Chuck Liddell, who I have to say carries a little more weight than just “somebody in the audience”.
I completely agree with Justin. And an important thing to note is it was not wiped off after the first round. It was only wiped off after each of the next 2 rounds. In my opinion all that is a completely moot point. The bottom line is GSP had vasoline on his shoulders and back. It is absolutely irrelevant whether it was intentional or not or whether it made a difference. The bottom line is a major rule was broken. My guess is that it did make a difference. Another article I read (I won’t name to website now because I’m not sure if thats frowned upon) explained that after the first round was over, BJ mentioned to his cornermen that Georges felt very very slippery. After the next round, and as BJ just couldnt maintain control with a high-gurad or with his arms, he mentioned again that GSP still felt unusually slippery. This is when BJ’s cornermen grew suspicious and told the NSAC officials in their corner about it. Those NSAC officals then went over and the rest is heavily journalized. but again, while it shines good light on having an effect on the fight itself, I think its absolutely a moot point. The important thing is a major rule was unquestionably broken.
The same Chuck Liddel that was recently beaten (destroyed) by a Greg Jackson fighter – hmmm. I don’t even like Rashad, but this smells.
To me Chuck looks likes cheesy after the fight running around telling everyone who will listen. Seriously? So Chuck was the authority not the Nevada State Commission, Dana or Lorenzo who were ALL sitting behind GSP’s corner?
To make your NASCAR reference synonymous with MMA, GSP would have had to have done something pre-meditated like have cement in his gloves.
There is no questioning GSP’s integrity and honor. This was not an advantage, and as the devil says above, if there was anything there, it was wiped off immediately.
Even though I don’t necessarily agree with this, I have to point something out. In NASCAR they will punish you but they will still let you race after and you can potentially win. If we follow NASCAR’s logic, GSP will have the win and might get fined (to him that’s probably not the end of the world). I think he would come out and apologize to his fans and the UFC but remind us that it did not influence the fight in anyway.
But then again…the UFC isn’t NASCAR.
You (like Greg) are missing the point. Did you know a corked bat in baseball actually doesn’t help you hit home runs? When you put cork in the middle of the bat it actually makes the bat weaker. So then why do MLB guys do it? Cause its a placebo effect and if you believe your swing is faster your more likely to hit the ball harder. So while it might have effected the fight directly it can be used as an advantage in GSP head. and yes they do have video the disproves Jackson statement. The video I saw his train rubs down his neck and shoulders. And yes Greg Jacksons camp has been accused of rubbing down his fighter with vaseline in other fights prior to this. That’s why Rudy Valentino spoke with the commision before the fight and let them know to keep an eye out for it.
Ps the vaseline wasn’t to help if BJ caught his back. Its to prevent BJ’s rubber guard or the ability to throw up a triangle. So yes if I was gonna put vaseline on my fighter who like to GnP from the guard i would put it on his shoulders and upper back.
Look at it this way. BJ had more vaseline on his chest by the end of the fight than GSP ever had on his back. And he got it from GSP’s head pressing against him.
The only way to prevent is disallow vaseline period. I’m not excusing what happened, but GSP would have had better luck rubbing his back on BJ’s super-sized forehead then from his corner guys doing it.
First off BJ needs to just stay at 155.. Second BJ did try rubber gard several times and his feet would slip off. But this could have been due to sweat. Either way greasing or no greasing GSP kicked his ass and BJ should just be humble like a true martial artist.
That is by far the best comment I have heard anyone say regarding this issue. I totally agree with you. BJ didn’t have what it took to back up his words for this fight and it clearly showed.
Evidently Greg didn’t know the fight was taped and their were cameras on him and his fighter. Cause from the video I saw, it wasn’t just a little rub on his back and tap on the chest to “line his energy”. I saw a full massage of the upper portion of his back. This isn’t the 1st time this camp has been accused of this. And 1st and foremost Greg seems to have missed the point when he says “well maybe he had a minsecule amount left on his fingers”. The point is its illegal to put vaseline on a fighters body, it doesn’t state that if its a little bit its okay. You can’t do it and your cornerman should have his liscence revoked for it Plain and simple and if he gets caught doing it again, Greg Jackson should also have his liscence pulled for a year.
I agree the guy who put any hands on GSP that had vasiline on them should be canned. Simply because he has unfairly tainted a fighters’ outstanding performance.
Unless the vasiline was laced with sleepy powder, BJ gassing is on him (as were the jabs he ate).
I’m not sure I understand the relevance of your analogy. You’re talking about before the race, not during it. I would assume the pit has NASCAR commission members there ensuring all rules are followed durign the race, right? Same with MMA events.
You can have “illegal parts” as a fighter, ie. steroids. You get caught before, you don’t fight. You get caught after, you’re suspended/fined/maybe a reversal of the outcome. But that’ not what’s at hand here. You have a cornerman with maybe a little vaseline on his finger, maybe. He touches his guy, his guy gets wiped off. But as far as I know this is an unprecedented event, so who knows what will happen. And if it were really a concern, the commission member would have kept the towel he wiped GSP off with and tested it for amounts of vaseline.
Also, where did you read Liddell was the audience member? I’m sure if it were true it would be all over the net.
If a driver or team is caught breaking rules like illegal parts DURING a race, they are pulled out of the race and fined and suspended.
Thanks for the clarification. So that should have happened to GSP, if the allegations are true. Which didn’t happen.
I think this is a compelling reason for the commission to send the vaseline guy so that the corner guys CAN’T do this, either on purpose or as a mistake.
The reason I used before the race is that, if the Vaseline goes on and completely back off in between rounds it doesn’t directly affect the fight, the same way that a part going on and off a car before a race doesn’t directly affect the race. However, it is still a rule violation. Maybe I should have used an analogy of them putting something on in the pits illegally and getting it taken back off, but that happens less often than pre-race. Hopefully this clarifies my point.
Drift,
re: “To make your NASCAR reference synonymous with MMA, GSP would have had to have done something pre-meditated like have cement in his gloves.”
Not necessarily, drivers don’t always know what their team members are up to, and I know (even though I really don’t follow NASCAR) that at some point within the last couple of years there was a team that put an illegal part onto a car that they did not know was illegal (like the Nurse unintentionally applying the Vaseline), and the driver was unaware of (like GSP not knowing about Nurse). The part was removed from the car and the team was still punished.
The super bowl is over, the refs missed a bunch of calls on actions that were legitmately against the rules and may have affected the outcome – do you suggest they void the Pittsburgh win, fire the refs, suspend the players, or play game over?
If you say no to any then I respectfully do not agree with the comparison.
In football, the refs miss calls, that is part of the game, just like judges in MMA getting decisions wrong is part of the sport. No one here has suggested that we void GSPs win, that the people on the commission who are responsible for overseeing the fight be fired, or that the fight be re-done. The only suggestion is that the penalty, for a rule violation that was caught on the night of the event, be penalized in accordance with the rules of the commission.
The NFL watches refs and the coaches have means by which to lodge formal complaints for bad calls. The refs are penalized for repeated bad calls, by pay cuts and/or not being to able to call big games. Players have been fined for “horse collar” tackles that were not flagged in the game, so what’s your point?
Besides, what does your NFL comparison have to do with the NASCAR comparison?
jackson knows. oh yes.
GSP probably didn’t as he went readily to check on Penn after the fight, which he wouldn’t of done had he been hiding something like that.
watch the 2nd rnd, and just watch BJ’s legs slipping.
Look at it this way too. The BJ Penn who has an unescapable rubber guard also fights better than what we saw. I’m just saying.
Once again,,,BJ Penn fans raise his big pineapple head…Please…if Penn noticed he was slippery then why didn’t they call in the ref and have him look?…because is all BS….Gsp’s back was wiped…wiped…wiped…and watched by the commision after that….If there was still vasoline still there, then the commsion was a fault for not stopping it…Please …Penn got OWNed!….
BJ Pen is highly know for his rubber guard and triangle defense attacks where evertime he attempts it, become sucessful and win…..If I knew this, which GSP and his cornermen obviously knew as well and wanted to prevent this…..Basically lube up the back of neck,shoulders and back and the rubber guard and triangle move become almost impossible…..BJ Penn is the best Rubber Guard,Triangle submission artist in MMA today. We all know that GSP walks around at 190lbs and lost droped to 175lbs to fight Penn who had to gain 20lbs from 155lbs to meet GSP. I mean C’mon,GSP is truly the more superior and stronger athlete, and was’nt that enough of an advantage??..Obviously not, Greg Jackson(GSP’s cornermen)applies extra vaseline to his fighters so that they can slip out of Submissions…but yes i do admit that Penn got owned…..but was he owned in a fair manner. Definitely, there should be a BJ vs GSP 3 to settle things fair and square. Hawai’i breeds the best fighters in the U.S. ……..ok shoots den! Aloooooooha!
Wow those were some quick replies. Left the comment box open a little long before replying. Anyways, I haven’t seen the replay, so I can’t say if it was a rub or a touch. But what I do know, is if any rules were broken, they will be on tape. And nothing has surfaced yet. Besides, the commission member was there and aware of what was “going on” as early as the 3rd round. Maybe the corners should have a hand washing station to ensure all residue is off the trainer’s hands when they rub them between rounds. Or maybe we should trust the integrity of the commission member at the fight.
PS. I agree with drift about the Chuck thing, it it’s true. That’s kind of a **** move to rat on a fellow fighter, akin to being a teacher’s pet.
rat on a felloow fighter? or stop a cheating to happen to a fellow fighter?
i’m equally a fan of both but:
it’s not bj’s job to officiate – but yes someone should be watching.
i’ve only seen a clip of someone approaching with a towel – NO WIPE WIPE WIPE.
SORRY TO REPEAT AN EARLIER STATEMENT – BUT IF THE WIPE WIPE WIPE HAPPENED – THERE SHOULD BE SOME REAL CONVINCING SHOTS OF THE TOWEL ACTION
The wipe only got one shoulder, I linked to a youtube video of it in another thread.
Also, this is different from the earlier “multiple posts thing” I was talking about, RDB. People have replied to your post since you first made the statement, on the other thread, no one had replied.
Sorry for the double comment here.
Bunch of whiners. Vaseline or not St-pierre would beat penn 99 out of a hundred times the 1 time maybe being when George had the flu or something. He’s just a better fighter get over it.
Not everyone is saying GSP won because of this. I for one think he would have won anyways, but rules are rules and must be followed.
thats bunk! if he had it on him it should be over turned! imo! GSP’s plan was to wrestle with him then it played a factor, GSP said he was tiring out his arms, thats easy to do with grease on your body! i saw pictures on a site that showed his corner man put vaseline on GSP’s face then rub his shoulders, then get some more vaseline then rub his back! We all saw the video Dana was pissed, he know they had cheated! I am not saying GSP is guilty or not! I would assume a fighter can tell when someone is putting grease on them? and i would assume a “champion” will be a lot more pissed about something like that happening then what GSP was or is? I would have fired his ass by now thats some ole bull shti! now GSP has to be called a cheater from all the pissed off hard core Penn fans! GSP should fire him if he didn’t know about it!!!!!!!!! IMO
by saying he would have won anyway,
YOU ARE DODGING THE QUESTION.
I think GSP would have won anyway…
BUT TO SAY THAT AS AN ANSWER TO THE QUESTION – WAS HE VASSED UP ?
IS AVOIDING ANSWERING THE QUESTION
but the point is we will never know for sure.
if I come out and hoof an opponent in the nuts, hold the cage, get greased up, I’m cheating whether I’m better or not. Correct?
yup
Who’s dodging the question?
Cheating is cheating, whether you are the better fighter or not, agreed.
They may have been too zealous with the Vaseline, but there NO WAY that GSP would cheat. Based on his character (and I have met him), he is an honest genuine person. I true warrior in every sense of the word. In Japan, he would be considered true bushido.
Plus, it had no bearing on the outcome. Penn was just outclassed. He “tried”, but failed.
So since you “met” GSP you can testify to his character. Did you meet him at an autograph signing. How can anyone say he would never cheat, when BJ’s camp was told to watch for teh vaseline by Serra’s camp. You would have to assume he had done it before.
Bearing on the outcome is irrelevant to whether there should be punishment for breaking the rules. Stop using that as criteria to make your point.
Who’s dodging the question?
Anybody who shrugs it of by simply saying he would have won anyway. (shrinks call it deflection)
above Turk… but there are too many to count.
IM TIRED OF HEARING ALL THESE EXCUSES. AND BEFOR THE FIGHT ON ALLL THE WEBSITES INCLUDING THIS ONE AT LEAST 75% OF ALL YOU GUYS WERE FOR BJ PENN. AND NOW ALOT OF YOU ARE ACTING LIKE YOU GUYS WERE FOR THEM THE WHOLE TIME. IVE HATING BJ SINCE I STARTED WATCHING UFC AND THE ULTIMATE FIGHTER SHOW REALLY DID IT FOR ME. JUST HOW HE ACTS LIKE THE WORLD OWES HIM SOMETHING DUDE PLEASE IM TIRED OF YOUR EXCUSES. GSP MADE YOU QUIT LIKE A LITTLE B*I*T*C*H… AND I LOVED EVERY SECOND OF IT… AND IM LOOKING FORWARD TO READING THE COLUMN TITLED “THE B*I*T*C*H IS QUITING FOR THE SECOND TIME”.
What does this statement have to do with anything? Maybe you need a hug YZ. No ones making excuses, or saying B would’ve won had GSP been not oiled up. Its simple, you break a rule you pay the penality. That penality should be that his corner man is suspended for a year, its a simple rule that everyone else in mma knows.I have yet to read any comments saying “GSP is a homo and a cheater and he should have his belt stripped” so unless someone starts doing that imma say your comments are unwarented and useless.
For those GSP fans with their panties in a bunch go to the other page “Penn files complaint over Vaseline on st-pierre’s back” on that page there is a GIF of GSP getting vaseline on his back and shoulders.
And cheating is cheating so it doesn’t matter if he would’ve won with or without it. In fact that makes Greg Jackson a huge idiot for jepordizing his liscence and the out come of the fight over something that “didn’t help” GSP.
Just a question. Does the vasoline transfer from fighter to fighter? Like the vasoline they put on the eye brows.
Actually in NASCAR if they havn’t recently changed it if a car is found to be illegal during the race they are black flaggged and able to get back in the race once cleared. Usually this means that the team does not continue the race anyways.
Still it’s a horrible analogy. GSP beat Penn into submission (literally) so who cares anyways. Boo-h00 rubber man.. boo-hoo..
Being black flagged is the penalty though, isn’t it? So, they are still penalized for their actions, as should be Penn’s corner.
GSP’s.
Yeah, that too…sorry.
I got your back, J-Dogg.
Thanks, dbiz.
a little vasoline goes a long way trust me. its like grease. ****s hard to get off without soap.
Are the two guys in each fighters corner with the red coats on with the commision? The guys that wiped off GSP’s back right. There are cameras everywhere, two guys in there corner watching for stuff like this, they saw and corrected….end of story. Especillay if they were warned of stuff like this before the fight like someone was saying above. Its all bull****, thats the red coat guys job standing right there and they delt with it.
This whole situation kind of sucks. There was a ridiculous amount of people that weren’t fans of the sport giving it a chance this weekend, and something like this is not making it look good at all.
I believe this whole situation was a mistake, so the question to debate is whether this was intentional or not, and for what purpose. I understand Penn’s rubber guard is not where you want to be, but I don’t think Jackson’s camp would implement vaseline in the game plan. That camp is extremely reputable right now, and I don’t think they would have risked that for a win.
“IMO” the whole situation has been blown out of proportion. I really hope this situation is as memorable as the fight itself.
I dont understand the controversy…. I dont care who won. I want a fair fight.
Its blatantly NOT fair to be greased up in an MMA fight. It is against the rules. If its true the he was greased, action must be taken by the commission. I dont think that involves overturning the decision but Im not a commissioner.
Nobody gets to break the rules and say “it was an honest mistake”. The rules are the rules.
As for Chuck being a “rat”, get real! This isnt High School. Chuck wants a fair fight also and pointing out that the rules are being violated does not make him a “rat” it makes him a fighter with ethics. I dont care if he has a grudge against that fight camp, if they break the rules, its reasonable for him to point it out.
To say “you cant question GSP’s integrity and ethics” is also crazy. TV protrays him as a stand up dude, but I dont take that for granted. I dont know him personally a wont smear him, not will I vouch for his integrity. You are a FOOL to do so.
Unfortunatly, the world is filled with fools who believe what they see on TV and believe they can judge character from that perception. SLEEZE BAGS work hard to protray themselves as honest people. Honest people can apear untrustworthy because honesty often makes them appear flipped or unlikable.
I have met GSP and spent an extended amount of time with him and other UFC fighters. He is what he appears to be, a stand up guy.
Please follow his lead and not let yourself descend into name calling/insinuations.
hallelluia.
this is pathetic that so many people are making a big deal out of this. there have probably been so many times in the past, in different fights, where vaseline was applied to fighters backs and their chest. BJ did try for a triangle several times but we dont know if the vaseline effected any of that? it could have been sweat, his legs could have slipped anyways…without vaseline,sweat, or anything. also, he gassed so quickly, i doubt his legs slipping off GSP’s back made him very tired. its ridiculous. he needs to be a man about it and move on, recover from his beating, and start training for Ken-Flo, because after what GSP did to Penn, im sure Kenny Florian is already coming up with several gameplans. if they were to fight again, this saturday, i think GSP would probably do the same thing, with, or without vaseline. notice how i said PROBABLY, not for sure, seeing how this is mma were talking about. anyways, everybody should get the f*** over it. especially BJ. No one is ever going to know if during THAT fight, if THAT vaseline made THAT much of a difference in the outcome of the fight. i think it wouldnt have made much of a difference either way so..
BJ did the same thing chuck did against rampage, he didn’t take his training seriously. The man was seen chilling in the tropics while GSP worked his butt off.
stop this broken record of saying it wouldn’t have made a dif so it doesn’t matter.
rules are rules
The NSAC will only overturn the results of a fight if one (or more) of four seperate components exists.
1) A fighter fails a drug test (not applicable here)
2) A scoring error (not applicable here)
3) The ref made an incorrect call based on the incorrect interpretation of a rule (not applicable here)
4) Collusion. (An argument can be made that there was collusion among a combination of either Georges, Nurse (The cornerman), and/or Greg Jackson to apply the vasoline, but nothing can ever be proven so it will be up to the NSAC to intrepret the spirit of the word collusion)
Now it doesn’t really get much more objective than that. But we can go around and round all day long and scream that the grease would or would not have made a difference. The fact is it simply does not matter one bit, accorinding to the Nevada State Athletic Commission, and they are the ones that are making the decisions here. All we can really debate here at this point in the game is the meaning of collusion and whether or not it was present on Saturday night.
To clear something up, I was not saying that the grease did not matter, I was saying that the question of whether or not the great made a difference is the part that does not matter one bit, to the NSAC
*grease (not great)
Actually, they can do a lot about it, it just doesn’t affect the W or L. They can suspend Jackson and/or Nurse. They can revoke licenses. Theoretically, they can suspend GSP’s license, although it sounds from all sides like that isn’t likely.
I don’t think anyone is saying this should be changed to a no contest, the debate is “what is the penalty to those who broke the rules?” Will it be a suspension? A more or less permanent revocation of Nurse’s license? Jackson’s? Or perhaps my question: The NSAC already assigns referees and officials to oversee the corners, apparently…will they also start designating and assigning cornermen who work directly for the NSAC to be the only ones who are allowed to apply vaseline?
For me, I think the responsibility falls squarely on Georges St. Pierre. He has to be held responsible for what goes in and on his body prior to and during a fight. Barry Bonds is blaming his own trainers which is a load of garbage. Bill Romonowksi blamed his wife for putting steroids in his protein shakes which is also a load of garbage. If there is any punishment, it shuold be on GSP and if he wants to fire his trainers as a result then that’s on him.
Jerod,
I disagree, Nurse should be the one punished. But in the end, whatever the NSAC decides is the appropriate action within their regulations will be what happens.
I see your point and agree to a point, but then do a complete 180 and can’t back you up on this.
The difference between GSP and Bonds is that GSP has one minute to catch his breath, get coached, and get back out while other people do whatever their job is. If one of those people, on his own, does something that violates the rules DURING GSP’s MATCH, I can see an element of not blaming the fighter.
Bonds, on the other hand, has never been accused of dishonest action DURING A GAME. That is the key difference. No one is alleging that GSP has done anything during training that is worthy of a suspension. This was a cornerman doing something with his left hand that he should have done with his right. Was he new? Had that particular cornerman done that particular job before? These are all elements that need to go into the decision.
I’m not saying that GSP should get an automatic pass because I do, to some extent, believe that GSP is responsible for his corner. I am not willing, however, to say that GSP should get the sole penalty from the NSAC because a cornerman has to be licensed by the NSAC. If that weren’t the case, then GSP would hold the sole authority to punish. He doesn’t. That argues that perhaps the punishment should go directly to the person who broke the rules.
And also leads to my belief that the athletic commissions should send a grease man to each corner and he greases and leaves. No one else gets access to the stuff.
I agree with Dbiz. Greasemen should not be part of the corner.
I think a fighter is responsible for his corner. I know he is only in the corner for a minute and has a bunch going on but he needs to pick reputable people (Im not saying Jackson isnt, he has a great rep in the biz). If you leave a loophole to say “It was my corner, not me” then a fighter and pick less than reputable people to corner him and everything goes downhill from there.
I dont know the NSAC’s rules and authority is but it would seem reasonable to fine both men and enforce probation for a period of time.
You cant tell me that a Corner man worth his salt didnt think, “Hey, I have grease on my hands…if I rub his back and chest, the grease might get on the fighter.” Its on the fighter to pick an experienced corner guy who would think of such things.
can’t a person tell if someone is putting grease on them???????????????
to me it is kinda dumb to say GSP didn’t feel GREASE being applied to his body?
isn’t it pretty easy to tell???????????
Nah, GSP wouldnt have felt it really. He was all wet so everything would have been slippery anyway. Plus his attention is elsewhere.
I could go for the idea of the NSAC sending in their own “greasemen.” But it will bring us back to the original controversy of if, say, the designated NSAC Greaseman accidently puts vasoline on GSP’s back. What should happen to the outcome of the fight then? GSP can’t be blamed, but should we turn a blind eye to the fact that BJ Penn went in then and fought against a “doctored” fighter? It’s a slippery slope, this dilemma. (no pun intended)
If the Ref was aware, he would have it wiped off. If it was unsuitable, he could call the fight a N/C.
If it went unnoticed, it would be eligible for possible overturn for rule 3, ref making an incorrect call.
Most likely though, the fight would stand and you would expect a rematch.
Once again, If I was fighting someone, in the clinch, in the first f*ing round and he had vasoline on him, why wouldn’t I say something? HMMMM…..Nothing was said until Chuck I got knocked the ‘f’ out in my lasst fighting Liddell started running around and telling everyone he could mug, ‘He did you see that’?….Please….
He didnt have it in the first round. It was applied by the corner after round 1 and 2. It was wiped off before round 3 and a warning was given to the corner.
Actually, Im not sure about what I just said…I think thats how it happened, but can anyone confirm. I think the “wipe it off” thing happened just before round 3.
From the Junkie article:
“At the end of the second round I watched, and then another cornerman who I believe was Greg Jackson, he put the Vaseline on Georges’ face, and then he put his hand on his back to do the breathing thing they always do,” Kizer said. “As soon as I saw that, it looked like there was still some Vaseline on his hand. Not a lot, but still some.
“Tony Liano and I immediately yelled at him, and I don’t think he heard us because of the noise. So I actually went into the octagon, and I said, ‘Take your hand off of his back. What are you doing?’ We wiped it down. We made sure it was wiped down after the third round as well. This was after the second when I was in there. I was very upset. I don’t know if they were doing it intentionally or not. Either way, they shouldn’t have done it.”
Ok, I’m finished with round 2, just got beat down, “hey he sure is slippery,,maybe its vasoline?,,He ref check out GSP, I think he’s greased up”…nada, nope, nothing….only after the great BJ Penn, who’s gonna make GSP quit, Got his ass handed to him did anyone say anything….It’s all a smoke screen to hide that fact.
sgt,
Those quotes are from Nevada State Athletic Commission Executive Director Keith Kizer. Are you suggesting that Kizer is putting up a smoke screen for BJ?
From another site.
“I found out this morning — I talked with another inspector of mine — he said that apparently B.J. Penn had complained to the inspector in his corner after either the first or second round that he though maybe Georges was a little slippery,” Kizer said.
Edit, this was from the MMAJunkie article linked to above by Kris.
Just watched the first post fight comments I’ve seen with BJ and he looked completely dejected and said he is unsure of his future,but he never once made excuses or complained.
where? i have been looking for BJ vid (post fight)
youtube – ‘UFC 94 post fight’
it’s a video clip from a news show
thanks mang!
Wiping Vaseline off really isn’t going to do much unless you have warm water and soap. With the mixture of Vaseline and sweat, that makes it even more slippery and oily. When a fighter is trying to use rubber guard on an oiled up back/shoulders, not going to work very well. It was also VERY easy to slide out of BJ’s guard into side mount. I am a huge BJ fan and will admit he did not fight like he does at 155, but when you use something to take away his signature defense, that is a little BS. GSP fought one helluva fight and I really do hope he was unaware of what was happening, if not, his legacy could be in jeopardy.
Pretty much from every side’s perspective, there was clearly vasoline on GSP’s back and shoulders during the fight. GSP’s corner admits it. The NSAC clearly admits it. They even admit being mad about it! At the end of the day, GSP fought BJ Penn with vasoline applied to his back and shoulders.
The NSAC doesn’t seem to think the rules in place allow for a change in the outcome. GSP fans argue the outcome wouldn’t have changed anyway.
At the end of the day, GSP fought BJ Penn with vasoline applied to his shoulders and back. Vasoline is not allowed there, as we all clearly know. It seems all we are doing is chasing after loopholes. Every single one of us. GSP fans say he didnt know about it, so blame it on the corner, but keep the same fight result. The NSAC says their hands are tied because the rules of overturning fights don’t talk about this, so keep the same fight result. It’s unfortunate that its an important rule (no vasoline on the back) simply because it clearly hinders performance but once the rule is broken, nobody thinks the outcome shuold be changed. Instead we worry to much about who should be blamed.
Okay, okay……
In the United States, you are PRESUMED innocent until proven guilty. The tape shows them putting the Vaseline on GSP’s face and then going to his shoulders to do that “energy thing”. Then the NSAC offiial comes over and tells Greg to step away from GSP. He does, they get a towel and wipe it off. Was a rule broken? Yes. Was it intentional? No. Does that matter? Unfortunately not. It did not affect Penn in any way (mostly because he was destroyed) but, again, that doesn’t matter. I’m no politician, but of seems to me that GSP need no help from anyone to completely screw up the really sad, uttelry pathetic “performance” by BJ Penn. Now, the question is this: What next? Does GSP get stripped of the title? No. Does Greg Jackson lose his license? That’s absurd. The penalty needs to fit the “crime”. Fine Greg Jackso’s camp and let’s get back to talking about how pathetic BJ is at 170 lbs.
You are presumed innocent until proven guilty in the eyes of the court, not in the eyes of the public.
If GSP had not been dunked fully in Vaseline BJ would not have gotten his nose broken and beaten soundly standing up…ha.
The way some of you sound is that the Vas was the turning point in the fight and the major reason why GSP won. A lot of bitter BJ fans out there.
Even if BJ believed that garbage he would have stuck around and spouted off to any reporter or anyone willing to listen but no, he knew he was soundly beaten in every aspect of the fight by a bigger, stronger, better prepared fighter and did not want to have to eat his previous comments.
Thank Chuck for starting all this crap because of Vaseline residue on a guys finger…ridiculous. Someone said the fight should be overturned because of this, yet another disgruntled BJ fan who bought into all the hype.
Okay, seriously? Blaming Chuck for pointing it out? Wow. That’s a new level of childish behavior. Anyone on this thread who blames Liddell for bringing up the Vaseline issue is seriously looking to hate one Chuck. End of story. You don’t bash the guy who pointed out the illegal activity. That’s complete crap and I don’t even fault the pathetic Penn for doing that. Get a life.
You should probably read the MMAJunkie Article where Kizer talked to them.
I haven’t seen anyone claim that the Vaseline was a turning point in the fight, just that it was applied (most likely unintentionally), that is against the rules, and there should be a penalty for breaking the rules.
i saw them put it on his shoulders after his face, then get more from his wrist and put it on his back!!!!!!!! your pissed at Chuck because he saw someone cheating in a title fight????? i think he had it on in the 1st and 2nd round GSP’s plan was to tire him out with wrestling those 2 rounds so hey i think it shoud be a no contest!!!!
Opinions, body parts, smells. That isn’t going to happen.
Seems like a lot of GSP fans sure seem to be OK with BJ’s corner breaking the rules. You are ok with your man winning a fight where the rules were clearly broken?
I am a fan of both fighters and a much bigger fan of the sport.
Didnt GSP have enough advantage being bigger, stronger, and better prepared?
GSP’s corner KNEW what they were doing. Any experienced corner knows that vas cannot go on the back, in any amount. They can say its an “energy thing” but its a ploy to apply vas to the back. They have now been cought and should be punished.
BJ’s reaction doesnt matter. Its against the rules. Plain and simple.
all of the GSP fanboys that dont understand rules…
if i’m in a sanctioned boxing match with your mom, and my cornerman unbeknownst to me rubs pepper spray on my gloves before the last round of the fight…and i’ve been slappin your mom around all fight mind you (cards are 40-36 me), and i go on to win (we all know that your mom is a quitter) – I should still suffer some consequences for cheating! Even if your mom gassed, and didnt put up much of a fight. even if she talked a bunch of smack the day before i punched her lights out. even if your mom is so conditioned to being sprayed in the face with pepper spray that she’s unaffected. my corner did something illegal, and i should be responsible for who i choose to have in my corner.
its why the bank-robber’s lookout is held just as accountable as the bankrobber.
GSP’s “team” did something wrong. Chuck Liddell did nothing wrong. Your mom in this case did nothing wrong. Nurse, and all of Team GSP should be held accountable.
You had a valid point, but tainted it a great deal with the “your mom” thing.
sorry…i’ve been at work for quite a while, and got frustrated reading comments over and over about how GSP owned BJ so it dont matter.
thats funny
I think the Your Mom stuff made a very valid point funny….its still very valid though.
LOL. Ah; heated opinions. They bring out the best in us, don’t they?
Have you ever heard of pepper spray on gloves? I thought that was greatly humorous
I’m ready to move on, but,
I will always regard this as a no contest.
without vaseline I’d still put my money on GSP,
but I’d love to see that second round if BJ had some traction in rubber guard.
didn’t the ancient greeks have naked wrestling covered in oil, but I digress
You’ll see this as a no contest because you refuse to admit that BJ Penn cannot compete against the WORST welterweight on the planet, much less Georges St. Pierre. Oh, and by the way, anyone talking about the rubber guard needs to ACTUALLY KNOW HOW TO USE IT before they talk about how BJ used it. Vaseline would actually HELP BJ because it would allow that foot to slip over GSP’s shoulder, allowing for a dangerous gogoplata.
You also regard Fedor’s loss as not a loss, so your opinion means exactly nothing.
Leave Chuck alone, not enough people point out illegal activities, even in real life so he should be praised. Good job Chuck. Alot of people should man up and say something, but they are scared, not Chuck. These guys saying Chuck was wrong are the same people that would stand and watch a woman get beat or a guy get stabbed and walk away when it was over, not step in or call the police.
Vasoline does make a difference, and a towel alone wont wipe it off, go try it on your own people. I’m a huge GSP fan, but with vasoline applied will affect what BJ was trying to do. It will make you tired from trying to continually try moves and the mental toll it can take on someone knowing they cant do something because of cheating really can hurt a fighter. If BJs legs slipped once becuase of vasoline, it’s cheating, that could’ve been the move that won BJ the fight. There’s only one way to settle this, REMATCH!
“These guys saying Chuck was wrong are the same people that would stand and watch a woman get beat or a guy get stabbed and walk away when it was over, not step in or call the police.”
No. You can’t compare allegedly putting Vaseline on one’s back to beating a woman or assault with a deadly wepon. Maybe in your sick little world those two are alike. More like, Chuck is much like the nerd in highschool who tells on the popular kids cause they cheat on their math exam. Sure it’s wrong to intentionally cheat, but it’s still kind of a biatch move to make. I’m sounding like a broken record here, but LET THE NSAC OFFICALS DO THEIR JOB.
When was the last time you formed an intelligent counter-argument? Cuz I’m thinking it was a few weeks before you showed up here.
Do you actually want to see BJ Penn die in the Octagon? Because that is the ONLY reason you want a rematch. GSP is up 2-0 on this series, with his last victory beating the very will to fight (much less the crap) out of Penn. No rematch needed. Penn will always always be below GSP on the P4P list. Every time.
Not that I want to see GSP v. Penn 3… but the last time we had a fighter up 2-0 both times dominating he got KOed by Rampage December 27th.
This is stupid
I cant believe were actually debating this. Only time is going to explain this and i’m sure we’ll here pretty soon from the NCAS about this hole ordeal since everything is well documented on tape especially when you can hear the cornerman of both competitors giving advice in both rounds. But i’m sure there will be new regulations on vaseline and wiping down fighters between rounds whether or not GSP is at fault here. Perhaps the cutman should wipe down the fighter completley right before the next round so that no corner man can having any wrong doing, cheating, or whatever you wanna call this.
Penn had the beginning of every round to work his excellent boxing on GSP, but penn even got worked in the standup aspect too. Just everyone calm down and wait until the official sentincing and then we can start talking crap about eachothers mom’s haha
Extremely funny that you call this a stupid debate, but still have to put your 2 cents in!! Why do I need to wait so long to talk to your mom? I’m sure she is missing me.
This is a sad situation dude. Intentional or not, the outcome was going to be the same and i think it’s irrelevant to file a claim. What’s that going to do? Make people forget that GSP beat the living $hit out of the “prodigy”? Everyone who knows mma knows GSP and his camp would NEVER intentionally do something. GSP wouldn’t even want to win in a dishonest way. Chuck lidell is just a little bittch and he’s mad that one of jackson’s boys knocked him the hell out. Can’t wait till this is over so people can talk about the gravity of GSP kickin bj’s ass
Once again. Don’t be a child. Liddell did nothing wrong. If Penn was doing something
nothing wrong and Chuck called it out, you would be praising Chuck. Seriously that argument is weaker than Penn in round 4. I would love for you to call Chuck a little ______ right to his face.
“Everyone who knows mma knows GSP and his camp would NEVER intentionally do something. GSP wouldn’t even want to win in a dishonest way”
Maybe so, but when break rules you break rules, whether its intentional or not.
“Chuck lidell(sic) is just a little bittch and he’s mad that one of jackson’s(sic) boys knocked him the hell out.”
As Josh V said, I would love to see you say that to his face. Also, how do you feel about Keith Kizer saying something about it…since that’s kind of his job, or did you not read the linked article… I’m thinking the second one.
To anybody out there who questions this fight, go and review the video. The end of the first round GSP’s people in his corner were sneaking in vaseline on his shoulder’s and back, intensionally. When the second round started, Bj’s jujitsu was to no effect with the vaseline on GSP’s back and shoulder because now jujitsu move’s would only slide off ones body. They say GSP and his people had a plan for this fight and they did, look at the video. The person rubbing the vaseline before the second round started on GSP has guilt written all over his face, was that their plan? to cheat. GSP need’s to be disqualified from that match and re-match again without rubbing vaseline on his body and if GSP had made any money from previous fights that he is suspected of greasing his body he should be stripped of that also. GSP should be ashamed of himself to carry a name like “St Pierre”. GSP should not get payed for that fight. There is evidence in the video of that fight that cheating was done intentionally and moneys generated from fan’s should not go to someone who cheated. GSP not only cheated in the fight, he cheated the fan’s. Fan’s payed a lot of money, GSP deserves none of that for cheating.
I need to watch this fight again and look for what you are saying.
Blah blah blah, random sanctimonious rambling, ideas for things which cannot legally happen and therefore are nothing but crap, sour grapes. That’s how the parent comment reads.
Smoke another one
I’m a GSP fan but if Liddell pointed it out and it was wrong, it was wrong. Straight up. I think if they fought 100 times, GSP would win 100 times. But that doesn’t mean anything when you’re talking about rules, man.
I’ve watched this fight over and over. Maybe I’m blind, but I cannot find any “greasing”. Maybe George’s corner should have put stickum on George so that BJ would just stick to him while George pummeled him:-)
There are moving gifs and videos all of the net that show the incident.
first, this is’nt nascar. second, if there was a little bit of grease it got wiped off!!!!! which means not much sweat on gsp’s back so bj could have had a better chance at rubber guard? i agree with jdubb bj should stay at 155 and how can bj do anything when his face was getting pounded. come one now all the penn fans need to accept the fact he lost. if penn didnt complain about this , this debate would’nt be happening
The rules were still broken. Regardless if it was corrected.
the rules were broken… or appeared to have been… but it was corrected…
and the correction had no bearing upon the out come…
now before you devils advocates pipe up and start spewing the same rhetoric over and over again what kind of sport is MMA?
its a sport based on honor and respect… sure the disrespect generates hype for media sensationalism, thats part of the show…
some of you may now say ” but cheating isnt honorable or respectful of ones opponent, and GSP cheated ”
well GSP didnt cheat, his corner screwed up, intentional or not; and that screw up was fixed with the commision wiping GSP off…
did they wipe down GSP fully drying him off? were there globs of vas on his back? should they have wiped him off better? who knows…
they arent about to go back and take away the win, or put an asterix beside it… its not like he was doping… or weighting his gloves
if a corner wanted to cheat by putting a lubricant on a fighters back and shoulders, there are easier ways to do it than by obviously rubbing vaseline on… and if they were gonna wipe it on htere wouldnt be trace amounts of it…
corners have what 1-2mins to get what they need to do done… the guy made a lapse of judgement and should have cleaned his hands off rather than do what he did…
an easier way to put it on would be fill a water bottle with some good ole KY-liquid and pour it over his head to help ” cool him off” towel his face put on the vas and back in the ring slipperier than a wet noddle…
the only way anything will be done about this is if BJ puts in some kind of complaint, and heres the thing about that… with all that bj said hed look even more foolish to do that… even if he would do it. he didnt show up to fight, he didnt throw in the towel, so if anything happens it wont be him it will be his corner… but with all there smack talk i doubt they will do anything either…
now if you have any jiu-jitsu experience, you will know that applying a lubricant to the mid back or upper shoulders does not affect a persons gaurd, no matter how high they hold it… it could affect a triangle or a shoulder lock… but as we saw bj didnt really get a chance to go for any submissions because GSP was too busy beating on him…
in this case sweat was more of a factor than what ever trace amounts of vas may have been transfered…
some one else said it already and i agree with them
“from now on the only person who should apply vaseline or touch vaseline in and around the ring, should be the cut-man” and ” each corner should have a person from the commision always watching them and the other corner men to ensure rules are being followed “
I have been saying since this came to light that the cutman should be the only one in the corner to touch vaseline, and going further to say that the applicable athletic commission (NSAC in this case) should appoint and pay said cutman. The rest of the corner can do their usual activities, he comes in, greases up, patches cuts, and gets the hell out of the way.
did ne one hear about bj thinking about making this his last fight? cuz im from hawaii and it was a post interview.
on the news
justin i understand you’re upset because your boy bj lost, but this whole thing is being blown up more than it should be. Nothing’s going to come out of this argument and the fact that bj got his a$$ kicked isn’t going to change. No one cheated, and GSP didn’t break the rules. His corner, maybe broke the rules unintentionallym but the truth is that GSP would have won anyways. How many times does gsp have to kick bj’s a$$ so you bj fans can stop looking for excuses?
Sorry to disappoint, mate. I picked BJ to win, but I really like GSP and have no qualms about him beating BJ. I was awed by how handily he did so. I just believe in enforcing rules, if the rules says you can’t do X activity, and you do X activity you should be punished according to said rules, period. I don’t care who you are, or how much I like you.
Also, I still wonder how Kieth Kizer, GSP, and Greg Jackson all recognizing that the incident occurred translates to BJ and his fans looking for excuses.
Here the rule for the Nevada Athletic commission:
NAC 467.598: The excessive use of grease or any other foreign substance may not be used on the face or body of an unarmed combatant. The referees or the commission’s representative in charge shall cause any excessive grease of foreign substance to be removed.
That is all the rule says.
If any vasoline was put on GSP it was a small amount. Not an excessive amount. So all the BJ idiot fans can now read the rule and cry along with the rest of BJ’s corner idiots and know that nothing was wrong with the fight except that the BJ that everyone on here likes did not show up and the BJ that did show up got his rear handed to him.
drillbitt,
Thanks for posting that rule. Watch the “idiot fans” and “corner idiots” thing.
Also recognize that, according to Kizer, the offense occurred both between the first and second round, and second and third, but was only wiped off between the second and third. Therefore, there are still grounds for an official complaint to the NSAC, because between rounds one and two no one caused any excessive grease or foreign substance to be removed.
GSP vs Pen III
Outcome the same, GSP by TKO or submission this time
Pen is the owner of the lightweight division as is GSP the welter weight, STAY WHERE YOU BELONG!!
Take a look at the spider in middleweight smart man, when do you think he will lose? No time soon is my bet.
As for oiling down a fighter WRONG but come on be serious, where is all this grease I didn’t see it and beleave me I checked as soon as i read the headlines, mistake or accident most likely but not enough to make a difference.
GSP owned Pen when is the last time you have seen complete domination like that with his gaurd passed at will, all the take downs and the ground and pound plus who gave up? GASSED
And as for liddel if it was liddel good eye and effort to make a fair fight fair!! HAHAHA hows the vision, blurry?
I haven’t read here or anywhere else anyone saying BJ could beat GSP!
IT IS JUST THAT GSP’S TEAM CHEATED!
SO WHAT THE HELL ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT???????????
i want greg jackson’s nose checked for WMD before every fight now…and people applying vasoline to their fighters face should be forced to take their rubber gloves off immediately after they are finished, or leave the ring immediately.
i hope GSP doesnt lose another fight, but seriously…if you have to tell the commish that Greg’s boys have been known to do it, and they need to watch for it…and IT HAPPENS, how the fck do you justify it as being harmless.
has any body read, that Matt Serra’s camp was saying the same thing? becausei have! i think GSP knew about the grease! just my opinion based on the facts
1 Serra fight
2 after the first round BJ said something
3 GSP’s corner was caught going into the 2nd and warned
4 they did it AGAIN going into the 3rd and it was wiped off
5 the whole witch “doctor thing” come on man? thats bs you wanted grease on your body
JUST MY OPINION
Once again:
Here the rule for the Nevada Athletic commission:
NAC 467.598: The excessive use of grease or any other foreign substance may not be used on the face or body of an unarmed combatant. The referees or the commission’s representative in charge shall cause any excessive grease of foreign substance to be removed.
THERE WAS NO RULE VIOLATION. The rule doesn’t say you can not use any vasoline on the body. It says you can’t use an excessive amount.
If any one is at fault here it is the commision and Dana White. If they knew before hand that something like this could happen, then they should have re-written the rules.
Get over it BJ fans. He lost with no rules violation. End of story.
I AM NOT A BJ FAN AT ALL!
ARE YOU TRYING TO SAY GSP’S TEAM DID NOT CHEAT???
That rule is under “GENERAL REQUIREMENTS FOR CONTESTS AND EXHIBITIONS” not directly under MMA rules. That said, one would assume that in MMA any substance on the body would be excessive. That is why fighters’ bodies are wiped down before entering the cage, and then have their *face* greased, by the cut man outside the cage.
‘just my opinion based on the facts’? Ha Ha Ha,that’s funny.
I’m still trying to figure out how people cannot understand when mixing Vaseline (oil) and sweat (water) no matter the amount large or small, will cause a very slippery area. Taking a dry towel and trying to wipe it off, will smear the area even worse. Go grab a small amount of Vaseline, add a touch of water to it, and rub it between your fingers. Now take a dry towel and wipe your hands, fingers are still slippery aren’t they? Not saying this caused BJ to lose 100%, but it did effect his rubber guard and a chance for a triangle.
– Removed due to repeat posting –
Sooo what is an “excessive” amount? 1 ounce, 5 ounces, a pound?? What? Would GSP have to be covered head to toe with Vaseline to be classified as “excessive”? I’m over the fact that BJ lost, that is not the concern here. A man stating he wants to be the best ever, be a legend, is called out by other fighters for using Vaseline on the body. BJ fans can get over him losing, how are you GSP fans handling knowing your boy may be a cheat??
To me excessive comes down to one thing. In the one gif I saw posted elsewhere, he went from rubbing grease on this face to his neck/shoulder and then rubbed his back. Others have said they saw him go back to his wrist for more.
If it was indeed residue fro mthe face and he should have used his other hand to rub the back, I consider that accidental and a very strong reprimand/”don’t do it again” probation may be enough. If he did, indeed, go back to the wrist for more that is intentional and merits a look from the NSAC in regards to suspending/revoking Nurse’s license.
I didn’t get this one DVR’d so I can’t go back and watch it on my own tv at home, so I’m stuck working with a crappy gif and the reports of others. Even so, I think my position on the matter is likely to mirror the actions of the NSAC as it is neither irrational nor a rush to judgment.
But on the subject of who would have won….did GSP do the nipple tweak?
IS ANYONE TRYING TO SAY GSP’S TEAM DID NOT CHEAT???
BESIDES HIS TEAM???
Ok, shut up already. Holy Christ… You’ve screamed the exact same post 2500 times on this thread. Stop screaming it over and over. It’s your opinion it isn’t fact. Just. Shut. Up.
Uf they didn’t break the rule, they didn’t cheat. Anyone that thinks that there was cheating in that fight knows nothing about MMA.
OWE OK, I DON’T KNOW MMA? I HAVE BEEN WATHING AND FOLLOWIN IT FOR 10 YEARS! I THOUGHT I KNEW A LITTLE BIT THANKS FOR CLEARING THAT UP FOR ME! WHAT ELSE CAN YOU TEACH ME ABOUT MMA? CAN I POKE SOME ONE IN THE EYE? CAN I KNEE THEM IN THE BALLS? CAN I BITE THEM? BECAUSE I GUESS ITS OK TO HAVE CORNER MEN PUT GREASE ON FIGHTERS IN BETWEEN ROUNDS! SO I AM UNCLEAR ON WHAT IS CHEATING NOW! HELP ME OUT “DRILLBIT” YOU MMA GOD, YOU!!!!!!!! SHOW US THE WAY TO KNOWING “REAL MMA”
The way you tilt at windmills, screaming abotu cheating and how horrible it is, then throw on “just my opinion” sure makes it look like you know nothing. I’m not passing judgment on your actual level of knowledge, just that you come across as a blowhard and a know-nothing. Try sentences, try not screaming. See how things change.
this guy just wrote that anyone that thinks putting grease on a fighters body is not cheating, and that anyone that thinks differnt doesn’t know mma! thats bs! “IMO”
so its whatever!
I’m an honest,married,harworking man so I can appreciate all the comments about breaking rules and being punished for them. I can also understand the zero tolerance for “cheating”, hell i’m all for it. This incident with the vaseline was not on purpose. Wether it was done, on purpose or not, if a rule was broken, then ok, do and say something about it. I agree.
I’m just pointing out the fact that, BJ Penn got his ass kicked and would have gotten his ass kicked if GSP went in there with sand all over his body instead of grease. I’m just saying, that in my opinion, BJ can’t live with himself talking alllll that $hit, and then getting the beatdown of his life. I’m saying, grease or no grease, accident or on purpose, GSP is BJ’s DADDY.
Also…also, dude it just looks funny when a dude like LIDELL, who got his ass kicked by two jackson fighters happened to be the one to run and tell someone.
Please oh please read the article that Kris linked to where Keith Kizer says another inspector brought this to his attention and drop the Liddell thing. (Sorry I brought it up, I had bad information.
I’m just pointing out the fact that, BJ Penn got his ass kicked and would have gotten his ass kicked if GSP went in there with sand all over his body instead of grease. I’m just saying, that in my opinion, BJ can’t live with himself talking alllll that $hit, and then getting the beatdown of his life. I’m saying, grease or no grease, accident or on purpose, GSP is BJ’s DADDY.
i don’t think gsp’s team felt the same way before the fight! do you?
Hey Willy, oil and water don’t mix. It did not affect the Rubber guard, thats garbage, GSP is too big for BJ to effectively apply the guard.
Watch the fight, every time BJ tried, GSP simply moved up and closer, no chance of an effective guard. There seem to be a lot of people with Vaseline experience here, i am not one. This whole thing is unfortunate and people are blowing it way out of proportion searching for that one reason, trying to understand how their hero went down with a trace amount of Vaseline, which apparently breeds and grows larger with Water.
you ever see Royce Gracie pull guard on bigger opponents? i’m guessing the first mma you’ve ever seen was TUF season 3.
Royce was actually in shape and could fight for the whole night. BJ hardly made it through the first round. The only reason he couldn’t pull guard was because GSP was better and BJ was tired period.
Mikew was referring to the rubber guard, not closed guard.
Gracie did not use Rubber Guard, if he did he would have submitted Shammy Sham in their super fight instead of going to a 36 minute draw.
Royce was a much better fighter than BJ can ever have a wet dream of being… Don’t matter which guard we’re talking about.
Actually, that’s being unnecessarily mean. Royce was a better fighter than 99% of the fighters we have today.
Royce was great in his time, but he got pwned by Matt Hughes. The MMA game changed, and unfortunately he didn’t change with it. He will always be viewed as a master, but should be viewed in context.
I know why my hero went down, he is not a great fighter at 170. You are correct, GSP was a bigger opponent, just like Hughes when he beat BJ’s face to a pulp in the crucifix. BJ is a 155lb fighter, he has better cardio there. Even if they determine GSP used Vaseline, BJ still lost the fight due to gassing out. GSP was pumped after the 4th round, jumping up and punching the cage REALLY got into Penn’s head. GSP’s corner needs to pay the consequences if guilty and this needs to move on. BJ will fight KFlo and hopefully win, Alves will have GSP’s belt. Just to throw that out there!
Also, Jazzkok, well said..i agree totally.
Willy i agree, their first fight showed how dangerous BJ’s striking was, thats where i thought the real threat was for GSP. He did gas quickly and because of GSP’s conditioning and speed he broke BJ.
When he defends his 155 i expect a finish more like the stevenson fight, punches and knees. GSP won fighting his style as seen in previous matches, he has developed a winning formula. Hey Zac, i was watching contact sports probably before you were born, but thanks for the personal shot buddy. Im just calling it as i see it, keeping it real.
thats cool man…i’ve been following the sport since it was mostly trailer park fans at UFC 1. I dont have a problem with most of what youre saying, just that GSP was too big for BJs guard/rubberguard whatev…Im saying that BJ could use that with Sherk….Gracie could use guard on bigger fighters…the thing with Jiu Jitsu is that smaller people can defend themselves against bigger people. Regardless of how BJ compares to Gracie etc…if you have someone that is a 170lbs BJJ blackbelt fighting someone that weighs 185 or 205 that relies mostly on wrestling the BJJ guy still has a chance (unless vasoline is applied/reapplied/wiped off with a towell/etc).
im with you that GSP won the fight, looked 100x better than BJ, and BJ should stay at 155 because he is dominant there. i’ve just seen his rubberguard about a billion times more effective against other opponents, and i can’t recall if he used it against GSP in their first fight, which was pretty close if you saw it.
oh yea…and team GSP still cheated.
“i(sic) can’t recall if he used it against GSP in their first fight”
Probably not as it was just starting to gain some recognition at that point in time.
BJ actually used it to get a really nice shoulder lock.
nothing against BJ, but all he landed in the first round of the first fight was a left jab and one good body shot.the blood made it look much worse than it was.
Im going to stop reading this thread. It has become apparent that the GSP fans like to talk a bunch of crap now that their boy won. They just cant get over it. I have read this ENTIRE post and not a single person has said BJ would have won but ever 3rd post some GSP fan is crying that GSP would have won anyone so its ok for him be oiled up a little.
Being a veteran of this website, Its pretty apparent that the knowledgeable people who post regularly are all of the mindset that grease is cheeting in the way it was applied in this case.
I look forward to reading what the NSAC decides about this issue. This thread is dead to me.
well I guess you just dug your own hole, heh?
your dumb! IMO
Your dumb means he/she owns dumb, which can be funny, but think you meant you’re dumb. So in a way, makes you look dumb.
i hear ya! its getting old but i just want someone to post some new info on what is gunna happen?
Just watched the fight over again, and I noticed that after the fight was over. GSP came over and talked to BJ, when GSP was crotched down to talk to BJ, Rudy Valentino had his hand on the back shoulder of GSP. If Rudy believes GSP cheated, why hasn’t he come out and said that I could feel the greese on GSP’s back at the end of the fight. A lot of people are saying that wiping off vaseline with a towel doesn’t get it off completely, well then Rudy should have felt it and I’m sure he would have mentioned this too. But he never did and it makes me suspicious that this is just an excuse coming from his camp, just so that they won’t get blamed for not preparing BJ for this fight. BJ didn’t look like he had any conditioning what so ever, because he looked very tired after the first round.
As for the rubbing of vaseline on GSP, the trainer had a small bit on the top of his left hand, dabbed at it and rubbed GSP’s face, then he went and brushed GSP’s shoulder and then continued to the middle of the back. At that time, the NSAC people that were around the ring should have sprung into action, but they didn’t and let round 2 go on. Now if you watched round 2 closely, you will see that when BJ had 1 leg on GSP’s neck and 1 hand on that leg, GSP postured up and BJ let go of it. The rest of the attempts BJ had his legs on GSP’s back but his legs weren’t touching his shoulders or the middle of the back. They were touching side of his back and his legs slid down every time.
I’m a fan of both fighters, and I really thought BJ was going to take GSP down to a split decision where GSP would squek out a win. I didn’t expect BJ to be dominated like that.
The cornerman that applied the vaseline should be fired because that was a big time mistake that has tarnished GSP’s victory and he should probably never be allowed to corner someone ever again, because it was a big time mistake. But to call GSP a cheat, that is wrong and to use the vaseline as an excuses on why BJ lost is wrong as well. All these posts from fans of both fighters are so biased and pointless.
WHAT EVERYONE SHOULD BE DOING IS CONTACTING NSAC AND COMPLAIN ABOUT THE RULE THAT THEY HAVE IN PLACE TO HANDLE THIS TYPE OF SITUATION. THE REAL ANSWER IS THAT THE CUTMAN SHOULD BE THE ONLY PEOPLE ALLOWED TO APPLY VASELINE TO THE FACE OF A FIGHTER AND IT SHOULD REALLY ONLY BE USED ON AN OPEN CUT.
Now if NSAC received this much feedback from everyone that has posted a comment, I’m pretty sure someone at NSAC will have a AH HAH moment and realize that the rule needs to be changed.
Just my 2 cents and I can’t wait for BJ to wipe the floor with KenFlo and GSP to destroy Alves so that everyone can see that BJ is the best LW of all time and GSP is the best WW of all time.
Rudy Valentino also stated that it was the gameplan for BJ to fight off his back.Makes you wonder why then did BJ expend so much energy defending the take down and avoiding pulling guard in the first round.Maybe he was just trying to wear GSP down before unloading on him,from his back.
OHHHHHHHH, that was the plan. Man these guys are so smart and so good at what they do. I had no idea lol, well then your plan worked. He got to fight off his back the whole fight! Well now that we all know this was the intention from the beginning I think we should all give BJ a High Five for being able to keep to his game plan and GSP not being able to stop him.
if you havent read the full article:
http://mmajunkie.com/news/13895/kizer-penn-yet-to-file-ufc-94-appeal-st-pierres-corner-could-face-action.mma
Arguement over…Cheated.
That’s at least the third time that link has been posted here…maybe people will actually go to it this time.
The argument isn’t over because “cheating” implies intent, and no one is able to tell if it was intentional or an oversight. I know, this makes me a GSP fanboy, or whatever. No. Intent determines if something is cheating or an infraction of the rules.
It is a subtle line drawn, but it is there for a reason. Say I’m a fighter and I accidentally headbutt a guy. That was an infraction of the rules. It isn’t CHEATING unless I intentionally headbutt him. Same goes for an eye poke or a kick to the groin (incidentally, Kongo’s retaliatory nutshot WAS cheating in my mind, for this very reason).
By your logic every groin kick, eye poke, headbutt or grabbing the cage is outright cheating, no debate. If that’s your opinion, I can’t stop that and won’t even fight it because you are entitled to it.
But if you say that every infraction of the rules is cheating, you tarnish the reputations of many good fighters, who never intended to do anything wrong. And Kizer recognizes this and says as much when he says he doesn’t know if it was an oversight or intentional, thereby implying that there is a difference in the eyes of the commission.
no man! they put vas on him inbetween rounds (i said gsp’s team) and all the other stuff was about drillbit telling us what is ok to do and what isn’t!
but i will not insult you and bretend you didn’t know that! i will just say you try to sound soooooooo smart and it shows!
I agree about Kongo’s nut shot, both that it was retaliatory, and cheating. I felt like that was clearly intentional and should have been dealt with accordingly.
i went to it monday mourning, i said something new! i don’t know why but everytime there is a real topic up for debate people on this site(myself included) start picking at each other!
everone thinks they are the deffenition of a “MMA Fan” it is kinda dumb to me!
people critisize my spelling and sentance format?
and say i type the same stuff! well i did, because i kept reading the same stuff and the people that were writing it did not answer my question! so i wrote it a differnt way (thought) sorry dudes
i will strive to be a better speller and all around MMA fan! thumbs up dudes
The only thing that is going to happen is the corner guy getting in trouble. There’s no argument over whether it was legal or not. Just listened to an interview with Dana White and some Boston Radio show, everybody realizes it had no impact on the fight.
Everyone knows how BJ is and can be. He got the worst beating of his life, its hard for someone like him who is obviously insecure about himself. GSP said basically the same thing on SI.com.
Another thing which benefits people like Trigg,Serra,Hughes,Sherk,Miller and Penn is that they get to use this ” Grease ” situation to win back some of their pride which was taken away after the incredible beatings they all took at the hands of GSP.
What they don’t realize is that it makes them all look like little girls.
GREASE GETS EVERYWHERE LOL…. WHEN ITS APPLIED ON THE FACE IT GETS RUBBED ALL OVER ANOTHER FIGHTERS BODY DURING A FIGHT AT MANY DIFFERENT POSITIONS. ALL FIGHTERS ARE COMPLETELY GREASED UP BY THE END OF A FIGHT.
The corner man will pay for screwing up but for anyone who actually thinks it played any roll in the fight, maybe your doing too much greasing by yourself at night.
sorry when i said cheated (you cant prove cheating in this case), instead, violated the rules…which is completely different than cheating. for instance a kick to someones groin isn’t cheating, its violating the rules, unless its on purpose, and meant not to be detected which is cheating…it just sounds like teh cornerman was cheating, but really he was just violating the rules.
happy?
The first fight was BJ pounding GSP with his heavy sharp jabs that left GSP injured and as he said scared at the end of the first round. Something was very different with BJ this time, i cant put my finger on it(not an oily finger), but i have to assume GSP adjusted his game, he is always better in the second fight against opponents.
I dont think JJ is BJ’s strongest attribute, i have always liked him for his striking, knees and ferocity as displayed against Sherk and Stevenson.
I will agree something has to be done to ensure this never happens again, the best suggestion i have seen posted is have the local commission supply sanctioned cornermen for the Vas.
well said mikew could not agree with you more!!!!!!!!
he got poked in the dam eye the first time!!!!!!!!!
In the interim, the MMA world will continue to buzz over St. Pierre muay Thai trainer Phil Nurse’s Vaseline indiscretions. Ultimately, however, St. Pierre’s brutal bashing of rival B.J. Penn at UFC 94 will stand, which means it’s on to the next megafight for the budding superstar. While his pounding of “The Prodigy” has rejuvenated his case to be considered the sport’s pound-for-pound king, St. Pierre has a chance to earn yet another win over another pound-for-pound entrant when he faces top contender Thiago Alves later this year. If he’s able to dominate the dynamic Alves, it would be mighty difficult to argue against St. Pierre as the sport’s undisputed alpha dog.
THE END
I SAY GSP VS PENN 3 WHO IS WITH ME!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I could watch either fighter against anyone and be happy, i just dont see the point of #3, if you take two equally gifted guys the only seperation here is the size and conditioning. The big guy will usually win 9 out of 10 times.
I want to see BJ at 155 where he is at his absolute best.
These guys careers usually come and go so quickly, GSP will fade before you know it too, so i would like to see them at their best while i can.
I can’t believe some of what I’m reading. Do you people actually think that there was enough vaseline on his “Two” small locations to actually make a difference. BJ is just looking for anything to blame for his shameful performance and the fact that he has to eat all those words. “TO the death” “To the Death” I guess BJ must have just DIED in the octagon huh. Give me a break, go back down to lightweight and shut your hole and do your job. Yes BJ is a phenom but he’s just not the best out there. Swallow it and move on please. Have a look at the fight again and decide for yourself. There simply wasn’t enough vaseline on his “2″ fingers to make any kind of difference. BJ you were dominated like a red headed stepchild, it happens, get over it with your $200,000 or more you made and start to, and here’s the trick, “PREPARE” for your opponents for more than a couple weeks and “show” a little dedication, we all know you can talk a big game. And yes BJ Penn could kick my ass no problem.
Is anyone aware of new UFC regulations towards the use of Vaseline, i heard something was put in place recently. It may have been posted here earlier and i missed it, just curious what happened…cheers.
At Saturday’s event they only allowed the official cut man to handle the Vaseline, but they kept in tact the rule that you could only have two guys in the Octagon for either fighter, so that limited each camp to one of their guys, and then the cut man in the Octagon between rounds.
Man do people really believe this or what. At what point in Georges career has he ever shown the need to cheat, in any capacity! This is simply an attempt by BJ’s camp to try and justify the loss. Georges is a class act not a cheater or a whiner. Did he start saying **** after the Serra bull****e to make reasons for his loss. No he said he didn’t take it seriously enough and that’s why he lost. BJ stand up and say you were owned then get back on the horse and take it out the little guys in the lightweight division and leave the WW division to GSP, you do not belong there and never have. Anyone who thinks Georges or anyone in his corner, thought they needed to resort to cheating in order to defeat BJ is simply sticking their head in the sand and refusing to see the fight for what it was. Georges is the best pound for pound fighter in the world and if he were 250 lbs I have no doubt that he would own Fedor the same way he did BJ. Oh and let me say this, I am one of Fedor’s BIGGEST fans, as well as a huge ANderson Silva fan and I still believe Georges is the best in the world pound for pound. IMO of course.
Hey Larry,
I am a big GSP fan as well as BJ, i agree the Vas had little to do with the outcome probably but the fact is it happened. There are little wrinkles in MMA still to be ironed out as it is still a relatively new sport.
People who claim he is a cheater really have not been paying close attention to his rise to the top.
It was unfortunate this happened but was dealt with swiftly and will not be an issue in the future.