Wanderlei Silva: Point-Counter Point
In the wake of his thunderous knockout loss to Quinton “Rampage” Jackson, some folks around the MMA blogosphere have been talking up Wanderlei Silva’s need to drop down to the middleweight class. Sam Caplan of Five Ounces of Pain outlines the case:
“…Forget about considering the move, it’s time to just go ahead and make it. Silva is not what he once was and can no longer swim with the sharks in the UFC’s stacked light heavyweight division. He needs to move down in weight in an attempt to reinvent himself in a division that isn’t anywhere near as deep as 205 and contains fewer power punchers.”
I will agree that Silva has been looking less and less like his former self these past two years, but declaring that a move to middleweight would solve The Axe Murderer’s problems is a weak argument at best. The unfortunate reality is that if in fact Wanderlei’s game is suffering that heavily, a move to middleweight will not turn him back into the world beater who dominated the Pride circuit.
Does anyone really think that there aren’t guys at middleweight who could put Silva down just as badly as Jackson did? Silva’s devastating KO losses aren’t merely due to light-heavyweights packing more of a punch, but also because of the glaring fact that Silva has always thrown his hands in kind of a wild, “hope I connect because if not I’m wide open” sort of way. That’s his style and I doubt it will change any time soon.
Furthermore, without turning this into a Men’s Fitness piece, I can’t say that Silva’s 5’11’’ frame seems all that well suited for a 20lb drop. The difference between 205lbs and 185lbs is massive, and the light-heavyweight Silva looks damn near picture perfect. Silva cuts a bit of weight to make 205lbs and probably walks around at least 10-15lbs heavier when not in training. There are also plenty of fighters who have cut to a smaller class and done well after the move. But those fighters were not nearly as seasoned and battered as Silva, who at 32 has seen more wars than a five star general.
Of course I’m not going to act as if I wouldn’t be curious to see how Silva fared at middleweight should he opt to go that route, because there are obviously some very intriguing match ups there. But if the best in the light-heavyweight division can handle Silva, then I am inclined to believe that the best in the understandably scarce middleweight division could handle him as well. If Silva indeed wishes to keep fighting, I see no reason for him to have to finish out his days as a depleted middleweight as opposed to a healthy light-heavyweight.
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I say Silva would tear through the middleweight division….he needs to drop…bein 5′11, he shouldn’t be a light heavy anyways…I’d like to see him in bisping, maybe even him and franklin…
Franklin fights at 205 now.
The current LHW champ, Rashad Evans, is 5′11″ tall as well so I don’t think that height is the issue.
If you’re lacking in height with your opponent, you have to make up for it with speed, precision and/or power. I think those are the questions that Wandy has to ask himself about the future of his career: are the old strengths that allowed me to dominate still there for LHW or MW?
I don’t see much point in Wanderlei really overworking himself and trying to get down to 185 just to get KOed by another Silva (Though I’m not sure he would fight Anderson anyways). Besides that, he’s already lost to Hendo, who fights at 185, and I think that even Patrick Cote would have a punchers chance, especially with his crisp boxing at KOing Wanderlei. Not to mention the cut could be too tough for him making him look a bit like Brandon Vera against Reese Andy, or Mike Swick in his first two forays into WW. It is my opinion that Wanderlei should stay home at 205 and fight some of the other fighters in that division that I’m sure people are interesting in finding out the outcome.
I completly get you stance on the situation.. I think that there is less of a chance that someone would land that hell of a shot in the MW division.. Take in account the “power” of Bisbing, I also see better fights @ MW for Wanderlei ex a rematch with Hendo, a fight against Marquart or Okami, Bisbing perhaps the destruction of Leben and battle with Gouviea, Sakara, Kang all these possible matches intriuge me.. Now we all know that there are Two fighters Wanderlei wont fight one being Anderson Silva the other is Shogun, the only fights that intrest me at LHW are a rematch with Liddell finsh the best of 5 series with Rampage, possible Griffin match… Also in PRIDE didnt Wanderlei fight primarly around 198lbs? I personally think he can make the cut and put back on the weight in time for the fight with his fitness circut and such i think he could do and be a force in the MW division.. I would also like to state that he has lost to top guys bottom line no scrubs or new comers or who is that guy type stuff all first class fighters, also Wanderlei didnt get caught (as some claim) he got hit violently and got ko’d bottom line, hell im a huge fan of his but some people need to be honest with themselves and admit he got ko’d… Wanderlei will be back in either division and with Anderson saying he will retire at the end of 2009 Wanderlei could mix~up a division that isnt lacking depth, just lacking true contenders and exciting superstars. Also look at how much Anderson cuts and guess what he is a pretty good MW i hear
Now that you have mentioned a list of possible fights, I’m starting to be a little more interested in Wanderlei at 185, still not sure he could make the cut, or that he would be a world beater at that weight, but it could provide some interesting match ups, and also add a contender to the mix, even if he won’t fight Anderson.
Right Justin the possibilities are more interesting at 185 imo, furthermore you wouldnt mind someone taking the reigns when (if) Anderson retires what Wanderlei might fight 2 maybe 3 times next year and if those fights were @185 and you had a fight for the “vacant” title between i dont know lets say Henderson and Wanderlei tell me that wouldnt draw fans to get excited about the MW division again (not that it isnt exciting anyways, but a lets see who wins this battle type thing rather than Anderson by murder in the first) it could work out quite nicely for the UFC and Wanderlei Silva let alone the crazy battles that could happen at the MW division if he were to choose to enter said division
As I recall Randy Couture got knocked out a couple times right around the same age. Maybe Silva just needs to take a step back and be more patient a fighter! Hes not 25 anymore…..his hand speed isnt what it used to be. What happend to his clinch of death? He just needs to dirty box and use the clinch to his advantage instead of trying to knock guys out standing at range!
Wanderlei’s problem is his style ,like Liddell’s style people have found ways of countering it, both the styles haven’t really changed much. Silva has always thrown his hands in kind of a wild frenzy with power, there are to problems with that best way to counter him is straight down the middle with punchs and he doesn’t defend well when he’s throwing wild. He needs to switch it up evolve your ever see a title shot again.
This is funny but Wanderlei needs a coach like Juanito Barra (Rampage’s Old trainer) he did a miracle to Rampages hands so maybe he can do the same for Wanderlei
I agree that Wandi needs to work on his hooks. He has lost the speed to get back into defense when his hooks don’t land. That is what happened in this fight, hook got blocked and his chin was wide open. He needs to set his hooks up with a stiff jab or a right cross. I would like to see him do at least one fight in MW against Marquart. Until Wandi can starting setting up his overpowering hooks, he will keep getting (t)ko’d or losing by decision in any division.
Karo Parisyan vs. Dong Hyun Kim …. Why does this fight get on the Main Card over “Jon Fitch vs. Akihiro Gono” UFC 94 .. is this the same Karo Parisyan that wouldn’t fight Fitch ? Its kind of sad I use to like Karo until he started picking his fights. { Tito }
http://mmafrenzy.com/2008/12/24/ufc-95-will-be-on-the-house-after-all-fitch-gono-on-unaired-ufc-94-preliminary-card/
Nice one, way to post something completely unrelated.
i posted a link to the conversations that we had here on MMAFrenZy.com but it hasnt gone threw, its at the upper righthand corner and is accessable by double clicking the link, cheers
o and its all in jest
Thank you for pointing out it was completely unrelated I did even realize that, if you could scroll up 1 message you would see I made a comment that is related to the subject. For some reason you didn’t put a comment under it saying { Nice one, way to post something completely related }
Posting something related is expected, and therefore does not necessarily warrant recognition. Sort of like, when you show up to work on time you don’t get a pat on the back because that’s expected, but if you show up late (generally speaking) you will get something said to you because that is the opposite of what is expected.
also, FR, if you post a link using the tag <a href=” etc it tends to work better than just straight pasting the URL. Its less likely to get caught in the spam filter.
thx for the info Justin
Wanderlei is a solid 205 pounder, size has nothing to do with this.
Most of these Pride FC monsters are coming over here and getting beaten down and humanized by true professional athletes.
Whats up with that ?
You gotta love drug testing. Pride FC was always controversial and you could buy steroids easier then a pack of gum over there and there were no tests done.
They can’t just beat up on japanese fighters anymore wearing Gi’s, i can’t even read the names of half of wanderleis opponents during his 5 year domination.
I don’t think silva needs to go to mw. I just think, like forrest when he got knocked out, that he should go to the drawing board, just like lidell said, and work on what are proving to be “kinks in his armour”. That’s all, silva is silva for a reason, and that reason is, that he can compete with these guys @ 205. If you don’t think so, ask jardine…
On another note, i just want to say, to whoever said i was wrong…that i called it. I knew evans and rampage would win. Score for me!
I really don’t think the talent at MW is less deep than at LHW. MW is still one of the deepest UFC divisions, it’s just that no one of them is good enough to beat Spider. With the winner of Henderson/Franklin coming back to 185, it’s still a pretty loaded division that Wand would not be able to walk through to get a title shot.
I personally would like to see him fight Randy at 205, both guys are supposedly at crossroads and then neither of them would have to face Chuck again
Wanderlei silva is a great fighter, he did great in pride. I agree that light heavy weight is too heavy for him. Both of his fights against jackson in pride he fought as a middle weight. He has more agility, speed and precision as a middle weight. Of course alot of fighters opt for heavy weight because thats where most of the money is, its what most people like to watch. But wanderlei needs to understand that his frame is not built for a heavy weight body. As for his skills he still has it and i doubt he wouldent dominate the middle weight class. Its true that at his age he has the record of a 40+ year old fighter but he is still young and able to put together combinations and kicks together to once again rise to the top, of the middle class that is.
ufc LHW are stacked- middle weights pale in comparison
hendo can beat spider -4 x out of 10 – he won rnd 1
maybe cote, probly lindland.
okami iwas able to take spider down but is not equal to spider – he has a faint chance of grinding a D
Lindland is not in the UFC.
silva vs bisping would potently be a great fight. i see no reason why bisping couldnt win it neither
also why do so many people **** about bisping and r.evans ?
man maybe i am over thinking this but everytime someone that is good losses its like owe owe he can’t hang!!!!! i am not saying i think he is 100% of what he used to be but come on man maybe it just wasn’t his night! Rampage looked so gun shy and unsure of himself the whole fight until he knocked him out! Wandi is the F’n MAN! He got caught! noboby knows why he just did worst to the dean and everyone was saying what a bad asss he was! no he needs to drop to 185? STUPID IMO!
Ya true Rampage did look unsure of himself until the Knock Out, did anyone else see that weird punch Rampage throw at Silva when they were standing it looked like he threw a standing hammer fist … my buddy next to me was LHAO. Him said it reminded him of me before I started boxing
just to throw this out there, i said the same thing about Rashad Evans, and he is the current 205 lb champion. being shorter isn’t always a DISadvantage, it all depends on the fighter and their style. I think people have recently been able to capitalize on Wanderlei’s style, much like they have been able to capitalize on Liddell’s style. Both were very successful with the way they fought for quite some time, until some younger and more cerebral fighters after viewing their fights for years figured out how to beat them.
you can’t do the same things for five years and not expect someone to figure it out eventually.
Are you guy serious? One KO in the UFC and (most of you) are telling him to drop to Middleweight? Man, oh man, the patience…..a fighter loses 2/3 in the Octagon, THAT’S what we should be talking about, not that he got knocked out. Those are two different talking points.
Do I think Silva needs to go to middleweight? Yes and no. Yes because I believe he’d be a contender to Silva, but no because he’s a huge draw a LHW. He fights guys like Jardine, Liddell and now Jackson? He’s a huge moneymaker for the UFC. Now, tell me Silva/Cote? Come on….I won’t even buy the PPV.
Put Silva against Machida or even Griffin for goodness’ sake. See what happens, and then, then if he gets hurt bad, talk about the move down. He should wait. Fight Griffin, Liddell again or Machida and then let’s see it from there. 3 fights in the Octagon is not enough time to assess this fighter at LHW. Case in point: His fight with Jardine was 36 seconds and his fight with Rampage was 40. Not enough time to assess anything.
The middle weight debate for Silva is nothing new after the with Arona in 2005 there were even calls for this shockingly and of course after Henderson & Liddell too and now Jackson.
Dropping a weight class certainly would benefit Silva it has worked for Couture, Franklin and even Bisping so far and Florian dropping down 2 was the best move he could ever make.
But with all due respect to Silva all of those fighters are more technical & intelligent fighters so i don’t know if it could work
Wanderlei Silva is The Man. I don’t think he should drop pounds, he just needs to re gain his confidence. He will be back. IMO Rampage cought wand with a luky eyes closed punch, when Wand was winning the 1rst round and looking good with his stand up…as always.
Give the man a chance! He is a true champ and a true Warrior.