Heavyweights Can Take A Beating, UFC 81 After Thoughts
After watching UFC 81 this past weekend, you have to wonder if Frank Mir and Antonio Rodrigo Nogueira had a strategy-sharing session backstage, where they both agreed to take a fierce beating before coming back to capture victory. It sounds like an awfully illogical strategy, since it requires one to absorb seemingly unnecessary punishment before securing the victory. But that’s exactly what Nogueira and Mir did. And it worked.
Nogueira is known for his resilience and being able to withstand a brutal striking onslaught (just take a look at his last fight with Heath Herring.) Frank Mir on the other hand seriously looked as if his night was over, as Brock Lesnar reigned blows upon him that appeared to have no end in sight. When Steve Mazagatti stepped in during the opening seconds, I thought Lesnar earned the TKO victory and started to wonder just how good Frank Mir really was. Yet Mazagatti apparently had a different agenda, and made perhaps the quickest point deduction I had ever seen when he ordered one to be taken away from Lesnar for rabbit punches, a.k.a. punches to the back of the head. The fight then resumes, and we all know what happened from there. Mir catches the leg, applies the knee bar with some heel hook just for fun, and taps out the mammoth WWE superstar.
Lesnar Had To Lose
This fight was pretty much a must-lose for Brock Lesnar. Why? Because if Brock were to win, then we would all say he that wasn’t thoroughly tested against the right competition. Then some MMA fans would probably lose a little respect for the sport, after watching an MMA-noob walk through a former champion with such ease. Lesnar’s loss keeps his credentials in check without hurting the integrity of the sport. Keep in mind, a victory over Frank Mir just isn’t enough to give an MMA newcomer the credit they desire. Regardless of how good Frank Mir really is, his perception is still that of a has-been who may go down as the most unimpressive heavy-weight champion the UFC has ever seen. For Brock to garner serious clout in the sport, he has to lose fights before he can win respect.
Just look at Kimbo Slice, he is a muscular freak with brutalizing power and is 2-0 in his short MMA career. However so far no one really seems to care. Why? Because Kimbo has not fought anyone that could prove his worth. He’s rolled through all of his opponents like a rag doll thus far, winning mostly on intimidation alone. Perhaps his next fight against Tank Abbott will finally give him some due credit, but that’s still a couple of weeks away. And so if fate were different to Brock Lesnar on Saturday night, and he instead pounded out Frank Mir early on, it would only have been a paper victory. His record would have gone to 2-0, but the recognition would only have been there so much. Sad as it may seem, Lesnar was the favorite going into the fight and he was supposed to win in the eyes of many. Now that he hasn’t, we can all rest a little easier. Brock actually did exactly what we needed him to do to become a recognized MMA competitor. He proved himself a force to be reckoned with, but comes out a loser due to his inexperience. I can respect that.
Mir Had To Win
As much as Lensar had to lose, Frank Mir needed to win if he had any plans of becoming a heavyweight contender ever again. If Mir were to have lost, he would go back to fighting non-televised under-cards and eventually, the UFC probably wouldn’t even renew his contract. Though Mir was supposed to lose according to many in the MMA universe, he really had to win to keep a remotely respectable reputation. I mean really, if the former champion/bjj master can’t beat the pro-wrestling meat head, what the hell is he doing in the UFC? By beating Brock Lesnar, Frank Mir unfortunately only proved so much.
Let’s face it, Mir did not look very strong early in the fight and could easily have been pounded out if Brock hadn’t broken the rules. Honestly, if Brock Lesnar knew how to keep his punches in the right places, the night would have been his. The question is, was Frank Mir lucky or did his game plan just work perfectly? One could argue either way. Regardless, Frank still has a lot of ground to cover if he wants to be back near the top of the UFC heavy-weight landscape. In my opinion, Frank Mir’s win over Lesnar does little more to further his battle back to the heavy-weight rankings, as it simply allows him to fight another day.
Tim Sylvia Not So Different Than Lesnar
Though Tim Sylvia is long time UFC veteran, he is actually in a similar type of position that Brock Lesnar is in. Sylvia is a guy who was never very popular with the fans until he lost the fight that people really wanted him to lose, while still looking like a solid and tested fighter. When Tim lost to Randy Couture, Couture made him look foolish and Sylvia garnered no additional respect for losing that fight. But now that he has eaten a loss while proving himself able to hang with the best, the fans can sympathize with him a little bit, and push him to be a better competitor.
Therefore, Tim Sylvia trains and becomes a better fighter, maybe stops grinding out decisions, and makes fans happy. Slowly but surely, hardcore Tim Sylvia haters start to respect the guy they once hated watching. Before you know it, Tim Sylvia is the fan favorite….someday. Honestly, most fans just needed Tim to not become the champ again to give us what we really want, some new blood in the heavy-weight division! Now that we can get that, it is easier to allow Tim do what he needs to do to get back on track toward a title shot. Because this time we know that if Tim Sylvia wants to reign supreme in the UFC once more, he will seriously have to work for it.
Nogueira Might Be On The Throne A While
So now we know that Big Nog will face Fabricio Werdum for his first title defense. Well guess what, Nogueira defeated Fabricio Werdum once before only two years ago over in Pride FC. My guess is Nogueira won’t have too much trouble doing that again. After that, who challenges Big Nog for the title? During the Joe Rogan session after the fight, Nogueira stated that he indeed wants Randy Couture (who doesn’t?) to come back and face him. Well that’s just great, but it’s not happening. Nor will our old friend Fedor Emelianenko be stepping into the octagon any time soon either. Though Andrei Arlovski might have a decent chance at beating Nogueira, his last fight in the organization is with someone not nearly as talented as Minotauro.
There is also the possibility that if Frank Mir manages to keep winning, he will get a shot at reclaiming the heavy-weight title and face Nogueira some time in the future. But to make a long story short, I don’t see that match going Mir’s way at all. Mir’s jiu jitsu is fierce, but Nogueira’s is even better, and he is just an overall better fighter. Then there’s Tim Sylvia. A rematch with Nogueira could just as easily go in Sylvia’s favor the second time around, but it will be a while before that match can happen again. As I stated previously fresh blood is important, the organization needs to shake things up and keep old flames like Sylvia on the back burner for just a little while.
Since the names mentioned above are probably the only few out there capable of defeating Nogueira, odds are the Brazilian will reign over the UFC heavy-weight throne for a long, long time. Many of you might be thinking “couldn’t Lesnar defeat Nogueira or Sylvia if given the chance?” With hard training, it is entirely possible. But like I said it should be a little while before Lesnar gets a shot at the big players in the HW division, so lets save that for another time when it’s at least within our sights.
The Problem With Lesnar
The problem with Brock Lesnar is that he needs to face decent competition to work his way up and become a better fighter. Why is this a problem? Because the HW division seems to only have two types of fighters: The really good, and the really bad. Brock could easily demolish the average MMA heavy-weight on size and strength alone, but he should not be facing champion level competition yet either. So who is in between for Brock Lesnar to fight?
There are a few guys out there that might pose a half decent threat to the monster-sized UFC newcomer, but no one that can definitely take him apart. That is why it’s almost probable for Lesnar to face Tim Sylvia in the not too distant future, with the winner of that fight earning a subsequent title shot. Crazy as it sounds, it is absolutely possible given the state of the HW division. With just a hand full of fighters at the top of the division, there are only so many people to fight before you start recycling opponents. This works in Lesnar’s favor, but nonetheless makes it difficult for him to find challengers which will put him to the test in the meantime.
Quick Thoughts On Other Fights:
Horn-Marquardt
What happened to Jeremy Horn? This is the guy who has beaten Chuck Liddell, Forrest Griffin, David Loiseau, Dean Lister, the list goes on, and he looked like an out of shape sloppy mess against Nate Marquardt. Now Marquardt is good, and he looked even better against Horn. But Horn seemed to have made that fight pretty easy for Nate. Jeremy Horn has fought at heavy and light-heavyweight in the past, and he looked much more in shape then than he did at 185lbs. Not that a fighter needs to be movie star ripped, but the guy had the most unimpressive physique I’ve ever seen from a middleweight. I really hope Jeremy Horn can come back and show us the Jeremy Horn that once was. If Horn really cannot perform on the level he needs to succeed in MMA, I suggest he retire before he starts fighting back alley matches in RioHeroes.
Almeida-Yundt
Ricardo Almeida is a world class grappler, we know that, and we got a nice demonstration on Saturday night. The thing is this doesn’t tell us a heck of a lot since the guy he fought had no business being in the cage with him. Props to Rob Yundt for filling in on short notice and pulling off that desperate move where he flipped over to break the choke, but the guy was no match for Ricardo Almeida. I’d like to see Almeida rematch Nate Marquardt after Marquardt’s big win over Jeremy Horn. That rematch would actually tell us a great deal about where these fighters look to stand in the middleweight landscape.
Boetsch-Heath
I don’t know much about Tim Boetsch other than his previous IFL appearance where he lost to Vladimir Matyushenko, but they guy seems to go for the knock out and that is what the fans like to see. I didn’t expect much from Tim Boetsch or David Heath going into the fight, but after watching Boetsch throw Heath around the way he did, I’m sold on watching him fight again in the UFC.
Griffin-Tibau
From an eager fans perspective this fight kind of bored me. I kept waiting for one of those big punches both guys were throwing to bring one down to the canvas, but it never happened. I will give credit to those lightweights you could tell they didn’t want the fight to have to go to a decision, but neither could finish and it just looked like it could have gone on all day. I think if Griffin picked his shots and combinations a little more carefully he might have been able score that K.O., but I’m sure he will watch the tapes and figure it out himself.
Lytle-Bradley
Wow. I knew Chris Lytle was pretty good but I didn’t know he was that good. Maybe Kyle Bradley just had an off night? Or maybe Bradley just isn’t that great. Either way Chris Lytle looked like a beast, very impressive.
Eastman-Martin
I heard this fight was quite the war but I didn’t get to see it televised so I have no idea. I do like Marvin Eastman and would really like to catch this bout online somewhere, but I have yet to find a video of it on the web. Anyone have a link?
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i don’t think they have to throw lesnar a can in his next fight but they need to put him in there with a good stand up fighter. and i think he will do very well i would love to see him fight someone like kongo next. thoughts
The Eastman-Martin fight was very lacluster and boring, thanx in large part to Terry Martin. The only round worth watching really was the 3rd. Terry Martin basically just tried to hug Eastman the entire time. Eastman did look really good and took almost every chance he could to try and knock Terry Martin out. I’m glad that Eastman finally won a fight in the UFC, but really dissapointed with Terry, expected more out of him after his last fight where he did the same thing. The clinch is a vital part of the MMA game, but no one wants to watch 2 guys in a clinch for 75% of a fight, it’s boring as hell.
good read this. i agree that the best thing to happen was a lesnar loss.it would not of looked good on the ufc if he had just came in and walked over mir. but i also think he was thrown in far too deep against mir. i know it sells pay per views but surely it benefits all if he worked his way up instead. i suppose he has to now anyway but i would hate for them to keep putting lesnar as the headliner.
I don’t know why so many people deny Mir credit. When he is healthy (which he seems to be now) he is one of the BEST heavyweights on his Jitz alone. He has decent stand up and wrestling also, but maybe the BEST submission fighter in the heavyweight division. I think he had better contol of the Lesnar fight than anyone gives him credit for, and his set up into the leg lock was exquisit. He was calm throughout the onslaught of Lesnar and it paid off. I think even without the timeout for the rabbit punches,Mir would have finished Lesnar.
Lesnar might have won if he had come in a little more calm. When you “bum rush” a submission fighter with skills, you will leave an opening for a broken limb. A lesnar/Sylvia fight is almost eminant, though I am sure Sylvia would rather fight fight Mir, but I think either one is a loss for Sylvia. Lesnar would ground and pound Tim in the first round, and Mir would most likely snap Big Tims other arm.
i think the lesnar vs mir fight ended the best possible way cuz he looked good but inexperienced which is exactly what he is. you can tell the guys gonna be a monster in a few more fights instead of just coming out lookin like a chump. i also like the way he took the loss. i’d rather see a guy lose a fight with some class then win a fight and be a douchebag (i.e. michael the fag bisping). excluding mir and noguera, i think brock stands a good chance at destroying anyone else in the weight class. once he understands jiu jitsu a little better, watch the F out.
who ever heard of losing to look better.. duh.
i would just like to know why lesnar gets a point deduction for 1 or 2 rabbit punches yet penn repeatedly punched stevenson in the back of the head with only warnings lesnar will learn patience to make guys like mir stand up he will destroy them no one will be able to stop his take downs mir would have been stopped in under a minute if not for the standup i will guarantee he will not want to ever fight lesnar again
Yeah scotchydow!!! Finally someone else who is saying that Lesnar was given more credit than he deserves. Rogan and Goldberg via there commentary have everyone believing Lesnar was raining bombs on Mir, he wasn’t. He got a couple good shots in but many missed and the rest were hammerfists; hammerfists are for show and to look busy, they have very little power behind them. Mir was busy looking for submissions and used head movement to avoid blows. Even when Rogan commented ablout Lesnar landing a ‘big’ elbow it didn’t even break Mir’s grip or damage him at all. I seriously advise everyone to watch the fight again without sound.
scotchydow, and thumper, right on we are on the same page.
harsh critics. i wouldn’t say lesnar looked like a superstar but it sounds like you guys are dismissing him altogether. the dude’s got an assload of raw talent that just needs some experience to go with it. mir looked good but who’s to say it would’ve turned out the same way if mazagati hadn’t stepped in like that? he had mir in a bad spot and in my opinion got kinda screwed with the stoppage. give him another year and a few more fights and he’ll prolly crush mir in a rematch. you can’t say that for any other fighter who’s got 2 fights on his record.
Hey 2girls my criticism isn’t of Lesnar, he did what he knows but he needs to know more. My criticism is of all the people who talk about the how hard Lesnar was hitting Mir and then say the blow to the back of the head was a tap; make up your mind. My criticism was mostly of Rogan and Goldberg. Lesnar obviously has some genetic gifts, he is strong and very quick for his size, but he still has to develop the skills to be a force in MMA. I seriously want everyone to watch the fight upto the stoppage and point deduction and make a list of all the punches/elbows :esnar throws, where they land and if they are anywhere close to LO force; I think you will be suprised.
i’d have to watch the commentary again, i don’t recall it being too off the mark though. i think lesnar could use more time to learn strikes and jiu jitsu but at the end of the day, he’s gonna be most effective by utilizing his wrestling to get the fight to the ground and pound people out. the other stuff would just be beneficial so that he knows how to defend it, which is equally important but i don’t ever see him trying to have a stand up fight or submit someone…. that is unless he’s like tito and feels the need to prove himself as a striker only to get ko’d.
Thumper you’re everything that is wrong with internet MMA fans. Lesnar is by far more gifted than any other fighter in HW class. Did you see how Brock took Mir down like he was a 13 year old soccer player? Did you see Brocks un-Godly quickness at 280+? He was moving as fast a LW. UFC had to make him XXXL gloves cause hand. And yes he got caught in a knee bar but that is not why he lost; Mazagati is why Brock lost!!! Why after one (as you say LO force) hit to the back of the head (that Mir turned into, as it was coming down, I may add) did the Steve stop the fight and deduct a point. That was BS, plus in 2 years Lesnar will rule the HW class and be the NEXT BIG THING in mma. Brock may be the ex-WWE Superstar but it seems to me that Frank had the HEEL (bad guy) Ref on his side throwing the fight! PS 2girls1cup funny name and Thumper I hope you pass you GED test and can move out of you Mom’s one day.
Actually Eddy you are the problem, I am expressing an opinion but not trying to attack anyone personally like you just did. I also gave Brock the credit he deserves, as on the last thread, CAN YOU READ?? By the way what is an ‘Internet’ MMA fan? I am a fan I watch it on a big TV after paying for it cause that is the way I like to enjoy it. I don’t steal it off the internet like so many. People will always disagree but there is no reason for the crap you are posting.
No offense Eddy but with your english I would not talk about anyone’s ed.
I am only going to say this one more time…..THE REASON LESNAR GOT THE OINT TAKEN AWAY IS BECAUSE HE MADE NO ATTEMPT NOT TO HIT MIR IN THE BACK OF THE HEAD. Most fights (Like BJ Penn vs. Stevenson) you see a fighter roll to his stomach and “give his back” and the other fighter ATTEMPTS TO LOOP PUNCHES AROUND TO THE FACE. Lesnar was swinging wildly, and making NO ATTEMPT to loop his punches away from the back of Mir’s head. I give Lesnar a TON of credit for fighting somebody with Mir’s experience, and agree his takedown speed and power was unmatched. His inexperience was his problem. He would have had a better chance staying on his feet than taking a BRAZILIAN JITZ specialist (last I heard Mir was a purple belt, but with his skill I am sure he has progressed) to the ground. Mir’s whole plan was to tap Brock. I also agree that he will be a force to be recound with in the near future but needs a bit of polish. I think that he would destroy somebody with little or no ground skills (like Sylvia, and I don’t want to hear about him beating Monson-because it wasn’t Tim’s ground game that won that it was his height)
maybe people saw it differently than i did, but it did look like mir turned into that hit to the back of the head after lesnar started swinging so i really don’t see why they penalized him, at least not to that extent, since he couldn’t have stopped it. either way, mazagati shouldn’t have stopped the fight. i see that **** all the time and they usually warn the guy once or twice to stop doing it before they break it up. again, the fight may have turned out the same in the end, but maybe not.stopping the fight definetly worked against lesnar since he was in side control and may have just pounded mir out.
Thumper I did not mean to piss you off, just thought that was funny. A Bambi crack would have been too ez.
I don’t get my people on this site and other like it are crapping all over Brock? Yes he was a pro wrestler before he became a mma fighter, but so were the guys who started Pancrase, Ken Shamrock and Sakuraba. So lay off Brock, He is a real fighter! He won’t quit on the UFC and fans because he thinks a contract he signed less then a year ago is no longer good enough.
As for Tim D will work on my english like Brock will work on his BJJ and we’ll both be the better for it.
scotchydow you are just wrong and 2cups1girls is right. I was just waiting for Steve Mazagati to hit Brock with a steel chair or for Brock to win only to have Vince McWhite (I like Dana but I had to run with this wwe rant) come out and say that this fight was now 2 out of 3 falls. Steve Mazagati cheated The UFC, Brock, Frank and us the fans from what should have been a great fight. He left me wondering “what if” not that was a great fight. But in 24 months when Brock has the interim belt (Randy will be in court until he is 50) this loss won’t matter, just like GSP losing to Hughes after 2 big wins in a row.
Oh ereyna92806, you just keep leading with your chin, “Bambi” as in noob. For the record I am almost 40 and have been a huge UFC and MMA for years, since the very first UFC in fact. I know what I saw on Saturday night and am confident that after all the hype dies down more and more people will come to see it our way. Scotchy is completely right and Mazzigatti and everyone else saw Lesnar do the exact same thing in his only other MMA fight. I am also sure than he was warned very emphatically in the locker room before the fight. Steve over emphasizes during the ring instructions about a “clean” fight.
A little off the subject, but not bad!
I miss the hell out of Big John doing the officiating. Especially when people start ??? the outcome of a fight due to a call that was made.
mir rolled his head into the hammerfist it wasnt that strong of a hit it warrented a warning not a point deduction mazzagotti was wrong mir may have still submitted lesnar but we will never know he was hurt you can see his eyes glassy if watch it again his only chace was to get out of side control that lesnar had and stevo gave it to him i thought we were in the wwe again and earl hebnar was in control of the action
Bottom line is that Brock hit him in the back of the head. That is illegal. Even though it didn’t look like much, it is still illegal. There are other illegal moves that usually lets the fighter have five minutes to recoup. Mazzagotti could have gave Mir 5 minutes if he wanted to. Getting hit in the back of the head is no different than a nutshot or kicking some one in the head when they are down. It is still an illegal move. Enough said.